[New Thread] What's Up with Ikkyu and Other Scandals?

[Jundo]

Okay, but what if someone came to you and said:
"I’m not really into rituals or chanting. I’m not interested in preserving teaching methods or upholding the religious elements of Buddhism. What I am looking for is a teacher who can show me, through their own life, what it means to live ethically. Someone who can teach me to navigate the nuance of cultural relativism and how to not get lost in emptiness. Someone who can, in a sense, prove to me they’re not hiding behind robes or rationalizing questionable behavior."

Based on what you agreed with above, would you say that person is simply in the wrong place?

Really what else is really worth transmitting? (And is this even transmittable as it seems so individual)

This depends on what the student is undertaking, and the relationship with the teacher. For example, if someone will be Ordained, then they should know well our rituals and chanting, doctrines, history and traditions, as well as the important of Zazen and Precepts and how to pass this on to the next generation. Even a "ceremony" minimalist Soto Zen Sangha like our has some rituals and chants to pass on. They should also learn to apply this Path to life and this world. Their focus is on service to lay practitioners and other sentient beings.

If the person is coming to the Sangha and Teacher as a lay practitioner, then they can be interested in different things, e.g., only Zazen and the Precepts (that is rather our non-optional base minimum. ) They should also learn to apply this Path to life and this world.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Shui_Di]

Hi Naill,

I am not a teacher, but I have some opinion.

You said:
Many people come to Buddhism with assumptions. One of the big assumptions seems to be that our teachers are supposed to be ethical examples. For many that is the basis for calling them teachers.

My answer:
Yes, a teacher should be an example for student. That's why as a teacher keeping the precepts is a must.

But teacher also human being, sometimes can make a mistake, but what we learn is his spirit to practice again and again. The Bodhisattva vows said, "even delusion is inexhaustible, I vow to end it". This quality is something that a teacher must have. Eventhough we are imperfect, but we see the perfectness in imperfectness, that's why we keep practice again and again. This spirit, is something that we should not only learn from our teacher, but we should feel their spirit, let it inspires us for our practice.

You said:
So when they do something that we find ethically problematic. It really lets us down and can shatter our faith in the path. But I think even the teacher who lets us down is teaching us a very important lesson. Why did we hold them up on such a pedestal to begin with? Why did we think that they were somehow better than us or ethically less prone to err? Just to hold this view could indicate some of our own blind spots.

My answer:
Exactly. That's why, very important to keep critical mind. This is the spirit of Buddhism. Ehipassiko. We are not blindly having faith on someone or something. We should use our common sense.

You said:
So sometimes I question why we have buddhist teachers at all. If they are just humans and are likely going to falter and fall short of our expectations (and it doesn't have to be something spectacular or sordid). They may just turn out to be ordinary people.

My answer:
Yes teachers are human. They are ordinary people. But it doesn't mean there is nothing we can learn from them. A wise man can even learn from stones, sometimes we can learn from our tragedy or pain. So if even a stone can give use a lesson, then a human, who keep the precepts, who have experience in Zazen, who got many instruction from their teachers, the one who consistently teach with their imperfectness yet keeping their Bodhisattva vows, from these teachers, how come we can't learn from them. Of course we can learn a lot.

You said:
I think the question is, did they ever tell us that they were a Buddha? Did we assume that they were a Buddha? Or is Buddha just another word for ordinary person?

My answer:
In learning, we should keep our bowl empty yet critical, so the teachers can pour his teaching inside our bowl.

Thinking that "You are not different with me. So nothing I can learn from you". This kind of thoughts is kind of a conceit.

With this mentality, even Shakyamuni appears before us, we might think that nothing we can learn from a Buddha.

In practicing, we should remember our Bodhisattva vows, "Dharma-gate is boundless, I vow to master them all."

Boundless means, Dharma can be everywhere, and including everyone, including our teacher. So we never stop learning.

Then, may be you will ask, "wait a minute, is Zazen mean we stop chasing? Is learning also kind of chasing?"

My answer is it depends on the way how we learn. If we learn something only studying the theory but never put it into practice, then it is wrong.

From the very beginning of Buddhism, people studying, contemplating and practicing. Studying is important that's why Dogen Zenji wrote Shobogenzo. And without teacher, we can misinterprete the meaning of Buddhist scriptures.

And a teacher is like a good friend, who encourage us to put it into our practice. This is why teacher is very important.

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

[Seiko]

Please don't pay my comments too much attention, as a novice priest here, I hope you will listen more carefully to Jundo and Senior priests here, and always read my words with a sprinkling of salt.

I have nothing useful to say about scandal. Instead I can share a memory of two priests that were my teachers 40 years ago. They worked together, but their personalities and teaching styles were dramatically different from each other. One remained a priest, one chose to return to secular life. I have deep respect for both, both taught me a great deal and I am grateful to have the privilege of being their trainee.

What do I think about teachers who go off the rails? I don't have to approve of every single aspect of a teacher's life to learn something from them, I can disagree with certain choices a person makes and still admire other actions they take. If we accept that we are not saints, there may be certain things about us that others will not like, and hopefully a few things that are OK.

Having said that, crimes and abuse of status cannot be ignored and should be brought to justice.

Gasshō, Seiko

[FNJ]

Ok Jundo, Shui_Di, Seiko

First, I want to apologize if I've said anything that is problematic. Seiko mentioned that I should be listing more carefully to senior priests and teachers. He also mentioned that I should take him with a grain of salt (I think I know what that means, but I'm not sure).

If the main criteria I have for a teacher is that they embody ethical integrity, that they’re not just preserving forms or passing on rituals, but showing through their life how to walk this path with honesty, how do I know who that is? Especially in a space like this, where I can't observe anyone directly, how do I evaluate that? It’s not that I don’t respect seniority or training, I do. But when someone like Mujo speaks in a way that feels clear, grounded, and ethically sincere, I find myself listening closely. Why isn't Mujo the teacher? How is he different from Seiko or Jundo?

If even rocks and rivers can teach, then maybe the question isn't who is a teacher, but what in a person’s presence makes them worth learning from. I’m not trying to disrupt anything, just trying to understand how we’re meant to tell the difference, especially when robes, rituals, and titles don’t always guarantee that someone is living the precepts.

So again, thank you for the teachings in this thread formal or informal. I’ve learned a lot from all of you. I’ll keep listening. And I’ll keep questioning. That feels like part of the practice too.

Sat LAH
Gassho,
Niall

[Jundo]

. Why isn't Mujo the teacher? How is he different from Seiko or Jundo?

If even rocks and rivers can teach, then maybe the question isn't who is a teacher, but what in a person’s presence makes them worth learning from. I’m not trying to disrupt anything, just trying to understand how we’re meant to tell the difference, especially when robes, rituals, and titles don’t always guarantee that someone is living the precepts.

So again, thank you for the teachings in this thread formal or informal. I’ve learned a lot from all of you. I’ll keep listening. And I’ll keep questioning. That feels like part of the practice too.

Hmmm. It is hard. If you go to a doctor for surgery, someone you really don't know, with a piece of paper on the wall, how do you know that they are ethical, will not cheat your insurance or come to the surgery drunk? I guess you don't. However, if someone goes through many years as a doctor, hundreds of patients, and much scrutiny without a scandal, and with a fair reputation, then I guess that they are likely okay. If you don't know, then I guess you have to rely on the opinion of others who have practiced with the person for years. That's all we can do, it is never perfect.

I advise you not to be so distrustful even if you were burned by your first teacher. Most teachers won't burn you.

Good luck in learning to trust again.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Seiko]

Ok Jundo, Shui_Di, Seiko

First, I want to apologize if I've said anything that is problematic. Seiko mentioned that I should be listing more carefully to senior priests and teachers. He also mentioned that I should take him with a grain of salt (I think I know what that means, but I'm not sure).

If the main criteria I have for a teacher is that they embody ethical integrity, that they’re not just preserving forms or passing on rituals, but showing through their life how to walk this path with honesty, how do I know who that is? Especially in a space like this, where I can't observe anyone directly, how do I evaluate that? It’s not that I don’t respect seniority or training, I do. But when someone like Mujo speaks in a way that feels clear, grounded, and ethically sincere, I find myself listening closely. Why isn't Mujo the teacher? How is he different from Seiko or Jundo?

If even rocks and rivers can teach, then maybe the question isn't who is a teacher, but what in a person’s presence makes them worth learning from. I’m not trying to disrupt anything, just trying to understand how we’re meant to tell the difference, especially when robes, rituals, and titles don’t always guarantee that someone is living the precepts.

So again, thank you for the teachings in this thread formal or informal. I’ve learned a lot from all of you. I’ll keep listening. And I’ll keep questioning. That feels like part of the practice too.

Sat LAH
Gassho,
Niall

Hi Niall,

There's nothing wrong with your questions. I like a critical thinker. Oh, and please don't take my comments personally. There is no veiled message for you. I just mean to say, as a novice priest (I only ordained in August 2023) I am still very much a beginner myself. To take my comments with a grain of salt is not to rely on what I say, but to decide for yourself (perhaps after seeking advice from someone wiser than I).

As for knowing who to accept as a teacher - you'll know. Of course, observe the reputation, actions and words of the teacher, but also trust in your own decision making ability.

And, yes, we have many teachers, I include my cats, my next door neighbour and most of all, my wife in my own list.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

[Jundo]

.

And, yes, we have many teachers, I include my cats, my next door neighbour and most of all, my wife in my own list.

Definitely! The trees, rocks, wives, teenagers, Trump ... but most of all, the cats!

Gassho, J
stlah

[FNJ]

Hmmm. It is hard. If you go to a doctor for surgery, someone you really don't know, with a piece of paper on the wall, how do you know that they are ethical, will not cheat your insurance or come to the surgery drunk? I guess you don't. However, if someone goes through many years as a doctor, hundreds of patients, and much scrutiny without a scandal, and with a fair reputation, then I guess that they are likely okay. If you don't know, then I guess you have to rely on the opinion of others who have practiced with the person for years. That's all we can do, it is never perfect.

I advise you not to be so distrustful even if you were burned by your first teacher. Most teachers won't burn you.

Good luck in learning to trust again.

I actually find it quite hard to trust doctors these days. There are just so many examples now of how our over reliance on scientific materialism has caused so many problems. I don't think the burden of Iatrogenic disease is fully appreciated these days , though I would say the problems are more systemic than individual.

For me in many cases it's a bit of a tie between what's worse the medicine or the disease. Which reminds me of this quote:

Suppose a man needing a snake, wandering in search of a snake, saw a large snake and grasped its coils or its tail. It would turn back on him and bite his hand or arm or one of his limbs, and because of that he would come to death or deadly suffering. Why? Because of his wrong grasp of the snake. So too, here some misguided men learn the dharma but having learned the dharma, they do not examine the meaning of the teachings with intelligence, they do not arrive at a reasoned understanding of them. Instead, they learn the dharma only for the sake of criticising others and winning in debates, and they do not experience the good for the sake of which they learned the dharma. These teachings, being wrongly grasped by them, conduce to their harm and suffering for a long time. —ALAGADDŪPAMA SUTTA

Trust is earned. If one had been taught through their study of cause and effect to not trust certain people then they have very good reason to not to trust those people.

But just because I don't trust the used car salesman doesn't mean I'm not going to buy the car. It just means I'm going to expect some undisclosed problems with the vehicle.

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

[Shinshi]

Yes agreed, everything can be our teachers. Some of the most valuable Zen lessons I have received have come from my horses.

Lets to back to Trungpa. Back in the 80s I thought he had all the answers. I thought he was a fantastic teacher and I felt I was learning so much. Then I learned of his transgressions and I completely turned my back on his teaching. For a while I couldn't even read anything by anyone who was one of his students.

But a few years ago I remembered something my Grandfather used to tell me: "Take what works and leave the rest". And so I tried applying that to Chögyam Trungpa. Yes, things that manifested for him produced much harm. I started to wonder what had happened in his life for these things to arise. And then I started to think about myself. How had I become attached to the idea that a great teacher had to be perfect in all things. Was it possible to learn from his teachings and also reject his behavior?

And so I decided to listen to my Grandfather and try taking what works and leaving the rest. I started with Pema Chodron and I learned valuable lessons. And so I returned to his teachings and I learned some more valuable lessons.

So I have loosed up my grip on judging others. And, right now, I don't think there are perfect teachers (sorry Jundo). Heck I bet the Buddha got a little hangry once in a while.

My advice would be: Learn what you can where you can. If you find someone that seems like a really good teacher then try working with them for a while. If you wait to find the perfect teacher you might never find a teacher at all.

At least that is how I see things today.

Gassho,

Shinshi

[Ryumon]

I think conflating Ikkyu with “scandal” is incorrect. Ikkyu certainly had his transgressions, but nothing suggests that any sexual activity he had was non consensual (though one can argue, form our current point of view, that paying for sex reinforces patriarchal norms). His approach to sex seems to have aligned with tantric practices, so is not totally outside the realm of Buddhist practices.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat Lah

[FNJ]

I think conflating Ikkyu with “scandal” is incorrect. Ikkyu certainly had his transgressions, but nothing suggests that any sexual activity he had was non consensual (though one can argue, form our current point of view, that paying for sex reinforces patriarchal norms). His approach to sex seems to have aligned with tantric practices, so is not totally outside the realm of Buddhist practices.

Cultural relativism is a slippery one.

If Jundo or I were frequenting brothels I wonder if you'd have a problem with that?

Or perhaps its ok for me as I am not a teacher but it is not ok for Jundo because he needs to be an ethically superior example?

It was not unheard of in the 15th century for underage "Maiko" to be working the brothels.

This "tantric" excuse has been used many times as a justification for ethically problematic behavior.

Sat LAH
gassho
Niall

[Shui_Di]

Ok Jundo, Shui_Di, Seiko

First, I want to apologize if I've said anything that is problematic. Seiko mentioned that I should be listing more carefully to senior priests and teachers. He also mentioned that I should take him with a grain of salt (I think I know what that means, but I'm not sure).

If the main criteria I have for a teacher is that they embody ethical integrity, that they’re not just preserving forms or passing on rituals, but showing through their life how to walk this path with honesty, how do I know who that is? Especially in a space like this, where I can't observe anyone directly, how do I evaluate that? It’s not that I don’t respect seniority or training, I do. But when someone like Mujo speaks in a way that feels clear, grounded, and ethically sincere, I find myself listening closely. Why isn't Mujo the teacher? How is he different from Seiko or Jundo?

If even rocks and rivers can teach, then maybe the question isn't who is a teacher, but what in a person’s presence makes them worth learning from. I’m not trying to disrupt anything, just trying to understand how we’re meant to tell the difference, especially when robes, rituals, and titles don’t always guarantee that someone is living the precepts.

So again, thank you for the teachings in this thread formal or informal. I’ve learned a lot from all of you. I’ll keep listening. And I’ll keep questioning. That feels like part of the practice too.

Sat LAH
Gassho,
Niall

Hi Niall,

It is okay, you did nothing wrong. We are just discussing about the Way. And I like your critical point of view, and this topic also very important.

You wrote:
If the main criteria I have for a teacher is that they embody ethical integrity, that they’re not just preserving forms or passing on rituals, but showing through their life how to walk this path with honesty, how do I know who that is? Especially in a space like this, where I can't observe anyone directly, how do I evaluate that?

My answer:
Jundo Roshi has explained it very well with the analogy of a doctor.

You wrote:
It’s not that I don’t respect seniority or training, I do. But when someone like Mujo speaks in a way that feels clear, grounded, and ethically sincere, I find myself listening closely. Why isn't Mujo the teacher? How is he different from Seiko or Jundo?

My answer:
My words maybe clear for you, but maybe not for everyone. It is just a "coincidence" that the way I spoke was understandable for you. But many people may don't understand my style of speaking.
And this is also important that we should not lured by how beautiful someone may speak, or dress or etc. By time, we might "feel" our teacher's wisdom. And sometimes many old master didn't teach by words. They acted.

For example, I learn a LOT from Jundo Roshi. His gasture for me speaks more than his mouth.

You wrote:
If even rocks and rivers can teach, then maybe the question isn't who is a teacher, but what in a person’s presence makes them worth learning from.

My answer:
Maybe part of your opinions is right. But, it is very clear that Buddha is someone real. And He is much worth than another Guru in that time. And learning from the Brahmanic teacher and learning from Shakyamuni Buddha was Big difference. So yes, "who is the teacher" is very important.

Some people in Buddha time, they refused Buddha's teaching, because they felt that Buddha's teaching is not worth for them.

Buddha taught about Ehipassiko, which means "Come and See". So to see or observe the teaching, we should come first. Then observe carefully, not by blindly believe someone, but with critical mind (like you already have), but then if it makes sense for you, don't forget to give it a try. If there is doubt, you can have Dokusan with Jundo Roshi or any other priests. Worth or not, we can understand it after we observe with patience.

Sometimes we need times to understand a teaching. So we need to be patient in practicing. Just like a spoon which always be with the food, but the spoon never can taste the food. Talking is important. Words are important, but don't forget to practice. After we take the food on our spoon, don't forget to give it a try in our mouth. If it taste horrible, don't eat. You may ask the chef what's going on. There are two possibility. First the food is bad. Or the second possibility, you take the wrong food. For example taking Wasabi and think it is avocado paste. For the second possibility, it is not the chef's fault anyway.


So, thank you for being critical, but as a good food critic, you must have a good tounge, and you should taste sincerely the food.

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

[Bion]

If the main criteria I have for a teacher is that they embody ethical integrity, that they’re not just preserving forms or passing on rituals, but showing through their life how to walk this path with honesty, how do I know who that is? Especially in a space like this, where I can't observe anyone directly, how do I evaluate that?

Excuse my butting in here, friend.

If you spend long enough practicing with us, you will get to know folks quite well. To write something nice is pretty easy and to engage in long discussions on a forum is as well. Anyone can pose as a holy man from behind a keyboard. Some of us, however, have been practicing together for years, showing up various times a week, sometimes daily, to sit together, to engage in formal practice and in other activities. We stay in touch off the forum as well. Actually.. mostly off the forum. We have each other on social media, on messaging apps, know about each other's lives, talk long enough with each other that all kinds of things arise and we get to see how we truly behave and are.

I am entirely with you on the idea that any monk should aim to be, as it is clearly said in our ordination ceremony ( for both jukai and shukke tokudo ), the standard for all human beings. How much more so should a teacher strive to be that! Buddhism/Zen is not taught just with words, but with actions, and anyone who lives out the teachings continuously stands out. That's my take on it, either way.
So, please.. hang around and practice with us. Look beyond the forums posts and get your hands "dirty" with "togetherness".

Apologies for the long text here, everyone.

Gassho
sat lah