[New Thread] What's Up with Ikkyu and Other Scandals?

[FNJ]

I have a question. There is a sense that Zen and Buddhism deals with the suffering born of craving. As such it would seem that the point is for people to stop the bad habits they have. What's up with Ikkyu Sojun? How does his realization fit in with talks about renunciation? Perhaps this is a Rinzai confusion?

Sat LAH
gassho
Niall

[Jundo]

I have a question. There is a sense that Zen and Buddhism deals with the suffering born of craving. As such it would seem that the point is for people to stop the bad habits they have. What's up with Ikkyu Sojun? How does his realization fit in with talks about renunciation? Perhaps this is a Rinzai confusion?

Sat LAH
gassho
Niall

I write about Ikkyu. Like Trungpa, I think that people call "crazy wisdom," what may have just been a like for drinking, even addiction to drugs (in Trungpa's case), and a thing for women.

lKKYU was an OL' HORNDOG

Ikkyū Sōjun was a "rebel", an iconoclast, "Crazy Cloud," serious as serious can be about Zazen practice, yet enjoying life with women and alcohol. He is celebrated by many, especially in the modern west, as a fellow who showed that breaking the Precepts is okay because the real Zen Precepts can never be broken. There is some truth in all that. l like the "rebel" part of lkkyu, bringing it out in the world, and down to earth. l am a fan. l'm married but l used to be single, l drink in moderation. (had some nights in life of overdoing too).

But my opinion of lkkyu's drinking and some of the womanizing in the brothels has changed recently. We celebrate this guy too much. l think that we Zen folks need to face facts a little more about this dude before we use him as an excuse for sexcess and addiction. . l have now come to think that lkkyu Sojun was a wonderful teacher in many ways, brilliant, but also was probably just a drunk and an old horndog in that other part of his life. l don't think of it as a "teaching," or "iconoclasm," so much as that he liked the bottle and his young girls for hire. Nothing to be ashamed of, totally human, but nothing to celebrate either.

l think he is a lot like Trungpa in this way, a wonderful teacher in some ways, but an alcoholic, drug addict and orgiest in other parts of his life. Hopefully lkkyu just paid for it, and was otherwise an honorable guy who wasn't the psychological and sexual abuser that a couple of so-called "teachers" have been like Sasaki and Shimano.

This came to me when l read some translations of lkkyu poems last week, some of which are quite something (granted, these are translations, and l have not looked yet at the original Japanese.)

all koans just lead you on
but not the delicious p**sy of the young girls I go down :

a beautiful woman's hot vagina's full of love
I've given up trying to put out the fire of my body

a crazy lecher shuttling back and forth between whorehouse and bar, this past master paints south north east west with his c*ck

And so on.

No problem. Fun guy, probably a blast to hang with, l don't claim to be a lifelong saint. But not a "Teaching" from lkkyu, just a guy who liked to party, get drunk and screw. Then he would put his robes on and head back to the monastery. Not a "Koan," not Dharma, and just a candidate for AA.

No problem, no need to glorify it either. At least he was honest and open about it.

Gassho, Jundo
(lf you want to hear a little more ranting on this, it came up when Kirk and l were recording Episode 4 of the "Zen of Everything" podcast, due out this Friday)

https://www.zen-of-everything.com/4

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[FNJ]

I write about Ikkyu. Like Trungpa, I think that people call "crazy wisdo," what may have just been a like for drinking, even addiction to drugs (in Trungpa's case), and a thing for women.


image.png

Yet he is clearly not the only Zen practitioner out there "giving in to his Karma". How to you rationalize or make the distinction between him and Eido Shimano and Sasaki-- im sure Shimano and Sasaki both thought similarly of their transgressions (if they thought in such terms)? Moreover, with the exception of Trungpa and some other Tibetan "expats" why does this seem to be a hallmark of Zen (maybe the beat poets fault?).

Sat LAH
gassho
Niall

[Jundo]

Yet he is clearly not the only Zen practitioner out there "giving in to his Karma". How to you rationalize or make the distinction between him and Eido Shimano and Sasaki-- im sure Shimano and Sasaki both thought similarly of their transgressions (if they thought in such terms)? Moreover, with the exception of Trungpa and some other Tibetan "expats" why does this seem to be a hallmark of Zen (maybe the beat poets fault?).

Sat LAH
gassho
Niall

Shimano was a rapist/predator and Sasaki was an abuser. Both might have had some charm and insight into aspects of the Dharma, and had the aura (like Trungpa) of being "mysterious wisemen from the mysterious East" back in the 60s ... but they were folks who tool advantage of vulnerable students.

I have done a lot of writing on this. First, I remind people that, for these "bad apples," don't forget all the decent and good teachers out there who help folks, make no waves, thus get few headlines.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/articles/sit-a-longs/521854-sit-a-long-with-jundo-sex-scandal-finger-wagging

I am also content to say that I had a chance to assist the late, great Rev. Kobutsu Malone in his effort to document the Sasalki and Shimano scandals. I played a small part in uncovering Sasaki's prison record for fraud and embezzlement in Japan ... The Japanese Rinzai Zen church dumped Sasaki in America because they did not want to keep the ex-con in Japan, so he came here, played guru, and abused students. I also wag my finger at folks like Shozan Jack Haubner who make excuses for him.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201019193252/https://sites.google.com/site/zuiganjiaffair/home

Shame on them. However, do not forget all the good teachers, out there doing good.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Bion]

? Moreover, with the exception of Trungpa and some other Tibetan "expats" why does this seem to be a hallmark of Zen (maybe the beat poets fault?).

Sorry to butt in. I have seen many, many Zen "practitioners" who are so caught up in non-duality, in the idea that zazen is all that's needed and in the mental gymnastics of conceptualizing how "worldly" Zen is, that they entirely miss the parts about precepts, dignified behavior, the practical application of the vows, the noble qualities and the Buddha's teachings about karma and right action in life. I guess it's really easy to forget that there is no enlightenment apart from everyday life...

Gassho
sat lah

[Jundo]

Originally posted by FNJ
? Moreover, with the exception of Trungpa and some other Tibetan "expats" why does this seem to be a hallmark of Zen (maybe the beat poets fault?).

As to Trungpa, Sasaki and Shimano, I would not put them in the same league as Ikkyu. As far as I know, Ikkyu was a frequenter of the geisha houses, which has been more acceptable in traditional Japan. Trungpa, Sasaki and Shimano were predators who took advantage of vulnerable students. BIG difference, As far as the historical record, Ikkyu was nothing like that, even if he liked Geisha.

And I disagree about Zen. Most of the Zen scandals, other than Sasaki and Shimano, involved people who had marital affairs, or fell in love with an adult student (which should not happen, but it happens.) I know one case in Europe, with a German Rinzai Teacher, involving child abuse (and he went to prison for it.) I know of no cases involving children in North America.

The Tibetan and Theravadan scandals, however, have been HORRIBLE! Shocking. Again, this should be considered "bad apples," but even one "bad apple" is too many!

image.png

https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Violence-Tibetan-Buddhism-Rinpoche/dp/0986377090

https://www.dw.com/en/buddhism-and-abuse-the-unspeakable-truth/a-65747842

https://www.ijm.org/news/trafficking-ring-run-by-thai-monks-crumbles-with-leader-behind-bars

Sadly, this kind of thing plagues any church or other institution.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

Sorry to butt in. I have seen many, many Zen "practitioners" who are so caught up in non-duality, in the idea that zazen is all that's needed and in the mental gymnastics of conceptualizing how "worldly" Zen is, that they entirely miss the parts about precepts, dignified behavior, the practical application of the vows, the noble qualities and the Buddha's teachings about karma and right action in life. I guess it's really easy to forget that there is no enlightenment apart from everyday life...

Gassho
sat lah

Hmmm. I see all kinds of Buddhists, and other church people from Rabbis to ministers to Imam to Catholic Priests, who know their Precepts or Commandments quite well ... and do wrong anyway.

It is a human failing and, sadly, plagues all churches and institutions, people in positions of trust who should know better like doctors, school teachers, parents, psychologists too.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Kokuu]

Hi Niall and sangha

In the (excellent) course that I went on a few years back dealing with healthy boundaries in Buddhism and preventing sexual abuse, it was pointed out that there are a number of reasons for these things. One is that the abuse tends to happen with more experienced teachers who have rather fallen pray to being praised and idolised rather than new teachers who still feel very fallible. Also, as Bion says, there is a trap of falling into the absolute/emptiness, that morality ceases to matter so much, or even telling oneself that this relationship is not like the others ones but a genuine expression of dharma. We are, as humans, great at compartmentalising our lives and can live out one side as an ethical/priest teacher with the other side also going on.

You would hope that decades of practice would act as an antidote to falling for this kind of mental gymnastics but the fact is that all of us remain humans with human failings and need to stay alert to desire and fooling ourselves. The riskiest stage may be at the point where one feels one is beyond such desires or black/white morality.

I do not feel that these individuals, and also the senior sangha who often turned a blind eye, negate the benefit of the dharma, but they are a lesson in being both watchful of ourselves and what is going on around us. if you ever read Shoes Outside the Door, about Richard Baker's time as the abbot of San Francisco Zen Center, it is certainly a cautionary tale, and the reason that we, and other Zendos, have a conspicuous ethics policy and committee.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Shui_Di]

I think there is big difference between Ikkyu and Sasaki and Shimano.

Ikkyu is honest with his behavior. He didn't force anyone, didn't manipulate women. He just had sex with Geisha. He enjoyed it, that's all. Did he brake precepts? If he was monastic, then yes. But did he do harm to others, I think he didn't. Did he do harm to himself, I don't know. Only he himself knew about it.

But for manipulative teachers who manipulate his student, they are predators, and for sure bring harm to the victims both mentally and physically. And here is the same sign of all predators, they try to hide it. They lie to people. Why? Because they can lie to others, but not to themselves. They know they did something wrong, they shy, that's why they hide it.

I think Ikkyu didn't hide his actions. Maybe it looks wrong. But, the fact he didn't hide it, means he knew what he did, and he must had reason (but I don't know what it is), but for sure he also knew the consequences of his action.

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

[Meishin]

Hmmm. I see all kinds of Buddhists, and other church people from Rabbis to ministers to Imam to Catholic Priests, who know their Precepts or Commandments quite well ... and do wrong anyway.

It is a human failing and, sadly, plagues all churches and institutions, people in positions of trust who should know better like doctors, school teachers, parents, psychologists too.

Gassho, J
stlah

As a clinician, I had something of a cottage industry treating "flawed human beings" who happened to be Protestant ministers and Christian counselors. However, as Jundo points out, these are folks who made mistakes and wished to stop making mistakes. Usually not sociopaths. (Please pardon the dualism there.) My guess is that the Zen priesthood has fewer "bad apples" than many helping professions. There's a correlation between perceived power differential and abuse. Most Zen priests I know are well-meaning and humble folks who for the most part do their work without a gaining idea. It's inevitable that some will fall short and rightfully will be brought to terms. But accountability should be flavored with grace.

Gassho
Meishin
stlah

[FNJ]

As to Trungpa, Sasaki and Shimano, I would not put them in the same league as Ikkyu. As far as I know, Ikkyu was a frequenter of the geisha houses, which has been more acceptable in traditional Japan. Trungpa, Sasaki and Shimano were predators who took advantage of vulnerable students. BIG difference, As far as the historical record, Ikkyu was nothing like that, even if he liked Geisha.

And I disagree about Zen. Most of the Zen scandals, other than Sasaki and Shimano, involved people who had marital affairs, or fell in love with an adult student (which should not happen, but it happens.) I know one case in Europe, with a German Rinzai Teacher, involving child abuse (and he went to prison for it.) I know of no cases involving children in North America.



Sadly, this kind of thing plagues any church or other institution.

Gassho, J
stlah

The historical record on Ikkyu Sojun is pretty limited and often blurred by legend, poetry, and his own deliberate mythmaking. Most of what we know comes from his writings, which were ment to be provocative, and from cultural norms of 15th century Japan that are really different from todays standards. Its hard to pin down exactly what he did vs what he just claimed or symbolized.

That kind of uncertainty matters when we start comparing people from back then to modern Zen teachers. These days, we’re always reevaluating old figures with modern ethics in mind sometimes realizing stuff we used to overlook was actually pretty bad, and sometimes seeing that things we used to call bad might not be that big a deal now. Like if it turned out Ikkyu had been involved with people we’d now consider underage in the brothels, that would really change how we see him. But the truth is, we just dont know for sure.

With someone like Chogyam Trungpa, though, we know way more. He was quite open about breaking precepts and living outside normal rules, but the extent of what he did caught people off guard. It wasnt just that he broke the rules, it was how far things went and how much harm was caused. The interesting thing is because of his transgressions he probably more than any other teacher in recent memory was responsible for many people coming to Buddhism because they could identify with him and his humanity. Plus he also shook to the core of the idea of following anyone as a infallible Guru.

The big difference is transparency and accountability. Ikkyu’s rebellion felt poetic, even symbolic. Trungpa’s actions were lived out and felt by real people (who we can name and interview). And when it comes to some modern teachers, the problem isn’t just rulebreaking, it’s the secrecy, the manipulation, and the hurt that follows.

So yeah, while we can’t fully excuse or condem people from history when the info is fuzzy, we can ask for honesty, clarity, and responsibility from those teaching rightnow.

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

[Jundo]

I made another post on this years ago, about how the tragedy of the one plane that crashes grabs all the headlines (and is terrible, lives are lost, it should be prevented and the victims helped!), but we forget all the hundreds of thousands of planes (Zen teachers) that land safely each day, getting folks where they need to go ...

There is a saying in the news business that "IF IT BLEEDS IT LEADS". An air crash or other tragedy captures the headlines and is endlessly examined by 24 hour news coverage, while the thousands ... hundreds of thousands ... of safe landings and uneventful flights that same day never make the news (Can you even imagine the strange headline ... "BULLETIN: PLANES MAKE NORMAL LANDINGS, NOTHING HAPPENED!!"). That leads to the unfortunate misperception that flying is dangerous, when in fact there have been record low fatalities in recent years, especially given the mushrooming number of flights and millions of passengers filling the skies. Countless folks get where they are heading, safe and sound across the world, and the most perilous part of flying is probably the mad taxi ride to the airport.

It is much the same situation in Western Zen these days, where a handful of crashed Teachers lead some to the falacious impression that there is some wide spread systemic problem in the Zen world. Critics, often foolishly shortsighted or even with an axe to grind, are quick to assert that the whole Zen adventure is dangerous or corrupt based on isolated and extreme situations. Nothing could be farther from the truth! What such doomsayers overlook is the fact of all the other teachers ... hundreds of caring, devoted, wise, compassionate, well trained, illuminating, enlightening folks ... who do not get involved in such things, who range from competent to truly gifted pilots who do not do harm to their students and, in fact, bring illumination and change lives for the better. They are out shadowed by the few (a very few) teachers who have crashed and burned.

This is not to discount the importance of shedding light on, uncovering, openly discussing and analyzing the few cases of abuse, for to do so is the only way to address the problem, help past victims and prevent future incidents in that same Sangha or others. It is much as air crash inspectors dissect every incident with an airliner, finding the cause and proposing a remedy so that like accidents will not repeat (a system that has been very effective to making flying very safe these days). We must not fail to aid even one victim of abuse, we must not turn our eyes the other way. That is why places like Sweeping Zen have done a tremendous service for all of us by reporting these incidents in all their gory detail, tearing away the cover-ups and excuses by "see no evil" types and apologists. Honest reporting is the first step to true healing and reform. Nonetheless, doing so can be misunderstood or misrepresented by some as an attack on all of Zen that focuses only on the negatives. Such is simply not the case.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/teacher-talks-tips/teacher-talks-tips-aa/talks-tips-and-topics-by-jundo/5467-sit-a-long-with-jundo-safe-landings

Gassho, J
stlah

[FNJ]

Many people come to Buddhism with assumptions. One of the big assumptions seems to be that our teachers are supposed to be ethical examples. For many that is the basis for calling them teachers. So when they do something that we find ethically problematic. It really lets us down and can shatter our faith in the path.

But I think even the teacher who lets us down is teaching us a very important lesson. Why did we hold them up on such a pedestal to begin with? Why did we think that they were somehow better than us or ethically less prone to err? Just to hold this view could indicate some of our own blind spots.

So sometimes I question why we have buddhist teachers at all. If they are just humans and are likely going to falter and fall short of our expectations (and it doesn't have to be something spectacular or sordid). They may just turn out to be ordinary people. I think the question is, did they ever tell us that they were a Buddha? Did we assume that they were a Buddha? Or is Buddha just another word for ordinary person?

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

[Jundo]

Many people come to Buddhism with assumptions. One of the big assumptions seems to be that our teachers are supposed to be ethical examples. For many that is the basis for calling them teachers. So when they do something that we find ethically problematic. It really lets us down and can shatter our faith in the path.

But I think even the teacher who lets us down is teaching us a very important lesson. Why did we hold them up on such a pedestal to begin with? Why did we think that they were somehow better than us or ethically less prone to err? Just to hold this view could indicate some of our own blind spots.

So sometimes I question why we have buddhist teachers at all. If they are just humans and are likely going to falter and fall short of our expectations (and it doesn't have to be something spectacular or sordid). They may just turn out to be ordinary people. I think the question is, did they ever tell us that they were a Buddha? Did we assume that they were a Buddha? Or is Buddha just another word for ordinary person?

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

The first two paragraphs are right on, in my experience. Well said.

As to the third paragraph, we need teachers to keep this way going from generation to generation, and to make sure that there is some quality and substance in what is being passed down and taught. Otherwise, as often happens, one ends up with 1001 people teaching 1001 crazy things, whatever comes into their mind. (I think that is called the "New Age" movement. ) So, one needs teachers in Buddhism for the same reason that one needs music teachers, high school, medical school, cooking school, airplane flying school teachers and such. Sure, one can teach themself the piano without a music teacher, and maybe also heart surgery or how to fly a 747, but it is better to have some experienced voices advising one. Yes, we each need to do our own playing and flying, and nobody can do that for us, but still it is helpful to have someone show how to do that transplant, dice a carrot or which button works the flaps.

Now, like chefs, even teachers will have different styles, flavors and techniques that they pass on different from the other chefs. Still, when a recognized and respected chef passes on tradition to a younger chef, and approves their cooking, there is some guaranty that some good will be served.

Gassho, J
stlah

PS - Most of the well trained French Chefs out there are actually quite good, serving tasty and nutritious food to those who come ... even if 1 or 2 among hundreds will sometimes poison the clientele. Bad apples serving bad apples.

[FNJ]

The first two paragraphs are right on, in my experience. Well said.

As to the third paragraph, we need teachers to keep this way going from generation to generation, and to make sure that there is some quality and substance in what is being passed down and taught. Otherwise, as often happens, one ends up with 1001 people teaching 1001 crazy things, whatever comes into their mind. (I think that is called the "New Age" movement. ) So, one needs teachers in Buddhism for the same reason that one needs music teachers, high school, medical school, cooking school, airplane flying school teachers and such. Sure, one can teach themself the piano without a music teacher, and maybe also heart surgery or how to fly a 747, but it is better to have some experienced voices advising one. Yes, we each need to do our own playing and flying, and nobody can do that for us, but still it is helpful to have someone show how to do that transplant, dice a carrot or which button works the flaps.

Now, like chefs, even teachers will have different styles, flavors and techniques that they pass on different from the other chefs. Still, when a recognized and respected chef passes on tradition to a younger chef, and approves their cooking, there is some guaranty that some good will be served.

Gassho, J
stlah

PS - Most of the well trained French Chefs out there are actually quite good, serving tasty and nutritious food to those who come ... even if 1 or 2 among hundreds will sometimes poison the clientele. Bad apples serving bad apples.

Okay, but what if someone came to you and said:
"I’m not really into rituals or chanting. I’m not interested in preserving teaching methods or upholding the religious elements of Buddhism. What I am looking for is a teacher who can show me, through their own life, what it means to live ethically. Someone who can teach me to navigate the nuance of cultural relativism and how to not get lost in emptiness. Someone who can, in a sense, prove to me they’re not hiding behind robes or rationalizing questionable behavior."

Based on what you agreed with above, would you say that person is simply in the wrong place?

Really what else is really worth transmitting? (And is this even transmittable as it seems so individual)

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall