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Bion - you have a wonderful precentor voice
Until I joined Treeleaf a few months ago I've only ever had decades of this experience of the multi-tonal Heart Sutra chanting Jiyu-Kennet Gregorian chant style. I agree, Onsho, it has a beauty that, like all beautiful things, is gained in part from being different. And growing up in the UK the more Anglican church style chimes more with my cultural upbringing, which sadly wasn't at all cosmopolitan. As a monk in the OBC the justification for this stye that I heard from Roshi Jiyu-Kennet and senior monks at Throssel centred on how our practice was in and of the UK, not trying to be Japanese. That said, I do understand how Treeleaf is more cosmopolitan and not directed at any one country/culture, which seems appropriate and is why I like it.
To Jundo point about how the priests at Throssel even wore white Anglican-style dog collars, I was one of those priest trainees wearing that. I seem to remember that wearing the Christian-looking garb was optional, distinct from donning normal monk robes outside the monastery, which I did more often.
Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah todayLast edited by Hosui; 03-02-2025, 10:58 AM.Comment
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"Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - HongzhiComment
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I spent some time in an Orthodox Monastery,
chanting the Agni Parthene is a memory that will never fade
Gassho
Hōkai
stlah“How can we ever lose interest in life? Spring has come again
And cherry trees bloom in the mountains.”
― RyokanComment
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Hi Hosui,
I am a novice priest here, with much to learn, so it's wise to take my comments with a pinch of salt.
I think the last time I was at THP was 1983 or 1984. I too was steeped in their way of doing things. The variations in practice, from place to place, are like the different flowers in a garden. We are all doing the same thing, but also all different. All beautiful in our uniqueness and oneness.
It took me a while to train myself to be fully here. I loved the OBC. Now I love Treeleaf.
For me, it's a matter of respecting the past, and my past teachers, but (since Jundo kindly adopted me) being fully invested in where I am now - Treeleaf. It's a great place to be.
Gasshō, Seiko, stlah
Gandō Seiko
頑道清光
(Stubborn Way of Pure Light)
My street name is 'Al'.
Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.Comment
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Is there a single source material against which all others are compared or did I miss something?
Gassho
MichaelW
satlahComment
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Well, there is the Chinese-Japanese original that is the single source against which English translations are compared. Is that what you mean?
Now, the thing about translating from Sino-Japanese to English is that the Kanji version is a kind of shorthand. So, there is much room for interpretation and elaboration in English, which "lays it out" more. For example, here is part of a translation apparently made by Suzuki Roshi back in the day which provides only the very literal meaning of each Kanji, a kind of short-hand where we have to "fill in the blanks" as to meaning.
That lends itself to various ways of expression and elaboration. However, the question then becomes whether a translation is just too far off the farm, or adding things that are not there at all.
image.png
LINK
By the way, although there is some debate, the Heart Sutra (Hannya Shingyo) was probably composed in China, not India, although even if so, as a summary of the "heart" of bits and pieces of longer "Perfection of Wisdom" Sutras.
Gassho, J
stlahALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Re source material.
A cursory google of the subject seems to indicate the the Heart Sutra is derived from the Prajnaparamita Sutras.
Is there any study tracing its evolution through to today? Did each tradition adapt to their own needs or interpretation?
Does not having a recognised source document mean Buddhist theology students don't have to write exegeses?
Asking for a friend.
Gassho
MichaelW
satlah
Comment
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I would recommend Red Pine's Book (LINK), and perhaps Tanahashi Sensei's book (LINK), as places to begin your studies. Okumura Roshi's Living By Vow also has a good chapter on it. (LINK)Re source material.
A cursory google of the subject seems to indicate the the Heart Sutra is derived from the Prajnaparamita Sutras.
Is there any study tracing its evolution through to today? Did each tradition adapt to their own needs or interpretation?
Does not having a recognised source document mean Buddhist theology students don't have to write exegeses?
Asking for a friend.
Gassho
MichaelW
satlah
Some of the Prajnaparamita Sutras are HUGE, somehow describing "Emptiness" but requiring 100,00 lines or more to do it! The Heart Sutra boils it down to a page, and does a fine job of it too.
There are some differences in approach, such as the more analytical Tibetan and Tendai ways, and the more experiential Zen ways, but the central message is pretty much the same for all.
Gassho, J
stlahALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
I think this morning I was especially boomy and resonant hahah
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