Turbulent & Persistent Thoughts during Zazen

[DallasP]

Good whatever time of day it is where you are and I do hope you are all well,

The other day, my practice “clicked” for me. As someone returning to the practice, I still very much consider myself new, but I’ve had the head knowledge of “observing my thoughts” for a long while. Finally, I’ve started to let the clouds of the sky that is my mind pass by on their own. Not getting caught up in the feeling and chasing it, but it was still nice to experience head knowledge line up with practice.

All that preamble is to ask, especially for those of you who have been practicing for many years, do you still get times during your sits where your thoughts are just absolutely persistent? Times where there seems to be no break in the clouds, so to speak, and it’s just a constant stream of storm clouds (It’s still good Zazen! Storm clouds are still just as much a part of the sky as a wave is still water!)? If so, would you mind sharing your experience?

Apologies if this should have been posted in a different location! I hope you all have a great day!

Gassho, Dallas
SatLaH

[Ddixon]

Dallas, this is a great question. As a laymember I speak with no authority, instead I speak of what has worked for me personally.

When the storms rise, and they will, and I am unable to shake them, I sit with them.

I observe the storm, without judgment, with loving kidness, compassion, empathy, and equanimity. I do this to understand what has caused this storm to arise and why it is so important that I cannot let it go.

Afterwards, when done observing, and with understanding, I switch to metta meditation to heal, calm, and release this storm.

Again, this is what I do, and is not an authoritative teaching, so please take it as a grain of salt in the ocean.

Gassho,
Douglas

[Shujin]

Hi Dallas,

I'm sure there will be different answers to this question, but yes, this definitely still happens during zazen. The intensity and frequency of my thoughts have diminished over time, which is welcome. Occasionally I still have some rough sits, however. I think you have the right approach to when this happens in your own practice.

Gassho,
Shujin

st/lah

[IanSmith]

Hello Dallas
If when I sit my mind won't settle, like a freight train going a hundred miles an hour, then I count my breaths (Sūsoku-kan) till it Slows down.
Gassho
Ian
Sattoday/ lah

[Bion]

Hi, Dallas! There are days when I seem to linger more on thoughts. I don't consider the thoughts themselves to be persistent, cause that would make them some invasive outsider, separate from the "me" that's sitting. I just think some days I am off-balance and grasp at thoughts more, rather than opening the hand during sitting. Some days I am too tired, sleepy or run to the cushion rather distracted by whatever is in my life, so it takes more effort than other times to keep the mind where the body is. Obviously, given all our ancestors included advice for what to do when the mind is out of control during zazen, it's safe to say, no one is spared!

Gassho
sat lah

[Shinshi]

HI Dallas,

For me you have already said it best. It is like the weather. For me the weather stays the weather. It is going to storm and hail and sleet, and be balmy and beautiful.

I try to just accept the weather as it comes. It is all good weather, even if some days I wish it wouldn't rain.

Gassho,

Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

Around here, we generally recommend for those particularly stormy days, when the mind is really a jumble and won't settle at all (and also for beginners new to Zazen) ... follow the breath. We don't recommend counting as it is too instrumental. Just follow the breath as it enters and exits at the nose, placing attention there, forgetting even the hard borders between in and out.

If really really stormy and swept with emotion, even a Mantra of your own making is fine. Any words or sound, with or without meaning, where one can pour one's attention .... "Buddha" "Peace" "Ommmmmmm" "Uga buga" all good.

However, for experienced Shikantaza folks, when the mind settles a bit, return to "Open Spacious Awareness," with the mind placed on everything and nothing in particular, letting thoughts go, untangled, in radical equanimity, sitting with the completeness of "Just Sitting" felt lightly in the bones.

As needed, move back and forth among those.

Yes, we all have days like that. Maybe after practicing a long time, fewer of those and a greater ability to sit in radical equanimity and open awareness with more life chaos!

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[DallasP]

I am very grateful to everyone who has taken the time to share their wisdom and experience so far in this thread. Thank you.

Gassho, Dallas
SatLaH

[Myo-jin]

To be honest, there have been times of extreme stress where sitting isn't really something I can do. If there is adrenaline coursing through the body with a panic attack, that's a chemical thing that can lead the mind in circles and conjure up all sorts of fear-based thought processes. Forcing myself to sit zazen at such times is an act of violence, sitting it might be, but it's not zazen.

At such time, since I know that adrenaline is a limited resource, and my body can only produce so much at a time. I know that that the more I use the quicker the current batch circulating in my bloodstream the sooner I'll calm down. So I use it, go for a run, do exercise, burn it up.

In general though (for example this morning), I notice that the mind has ebbs and tides, moments of clarity and moments of dullness, (in Hindu tradition these are called Gunas, Sattva and Tamas, there is the third, Rajas, but I digress). So even in a short sit the three Gunas pop up, I might go from almost asleep with dullness, to mentally of physically agitated, to a sense of clarity that also passes back into dullness. (this is currently a key component of practice related to another tradition, but I think it relevant to sitting meditation in general).

In practice this can look like daydreaming of being lost in thought, or being carried away by an idea or the urge to get up and move around, or a sense of clarity and balance where the extra thoughts drop away for a while, where I am simply sitting for the sake of sitting. Then I might get conscious of how well I'm sitting, triggering another cloud of thoughts, the cycle goes on. The thing is not to get caught up in it, I think Jundo once described it as being like standing on a train platform, a train pulls up, you don't have to board it, but let it pass.

I'm no expert though, I did Raja Yoga for many years before really learning about Buddhism, so I tend to observe and see the patterns in the mind. But like you I've had a hiatus and recently gotten back into sitting more. Based on that practice I would say that the mind doesn't really ever stop, but it goes through more or less quiet periods where you can step back a bit and see the workings, at other times it's like a great wave that whirls you away and washes you up again on some other shore.

I should say that I'm a layman here, so this is based purely on my observations and may not be what zazen is about at all, so please take it in that spirit.

Gassho
Sattlah
Myojin

[Tairin]

do you still get times during your sits where your thoughts are just absolutely persistent?

All the time. It is super rare for me to sit and not have thoughts swirling continuously. Depending on the day and the thoughts it can be frustrating but I just try to stay with our way of Shikantaza. When I notice I’ve been chasing these thoughts I bring myself back to my posture, my breath. Practice, practice, practice!


Tairin
sat today and lah

[Jundo]

All the time. It is super rare for me to sit and not have thoughts swirling continuously. Depending on the day and the thoughts it can be frustrating but I just try to stay with our way of Shikantaza. When I notice I’ve been chasing these thoughts I bring myself back to my posture, my breath. Practice, practice, practice!


Tairin
sat today and lah

There is a difference between (1) wallowing, being sucked in and tangled, stirring up and flooded with thoughts and emotions, (2) stopping all thought and, (3) letting thoughts and emotions come or not come, equanimous about the thoughts, untangled, not getting pulled in, experiencing the light of open clarity that shines through all thoughts/emotions or no thoughts/emotions. There is a difference between (3) experiencing thoughts and emotions with equanimity about them, disentanged, and (1) wallowing, stirring up and getting dragged around by our thoughts and emotions.

Shikantaza is (3), although some days, we cannot be (3) all the time. If (2) happens, that is wonderful. If (1) happens, it is just passing stormy weather.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Ankai]

I think we all have those times. The analogy that worked for me was thinking of them like passing traffic as I sit on my porch. I see them, I know they're there, but I can see them come and go without dwerring on or going with them, just letting them pass by.
Doesn't always do it, but it was helpful to me.
Just my own thoughts, nothing more.
ST
LAH

[Chikyou]

Like everyone else, I often have to face my own monkey-mind when sitting zazen, and with continued practice it’s gotten much easier both to avoid getting tangled in the thoughts and to accept those times when I do get tangled with equanimity.

During Rohatsu this year I had an experience about this very thing. I have often heard the analogy of clouds in the clear blue sky, but I’m not sure if I “got it” until this moment. As I was hours into sitting and my mind had wandered for the hundredth time that day, I realized that my mind had wandered AND THEN I realized, at that moment, that all the time my mind had been wandering, I had never once lost sight of the “clear blue sky”. Even if I wasn’t looking at it, I had real, experiential faith that it was there, had been there all along and would always be there whenever I turned my attention back to it. This understanding hasn’t faded since then.

Sorry for running long,
Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Jundo]

Like everyone else, I often have to face my own monkey-mind when sitting zazen, and with continued practice it’s gotten much easier both to avoid getting tangled in the thoughts and to accept those times when I do get tangled with equanimity.

During Rohatsu this year I had an experience about this very thing. I have often heard the analogy of clouds in the clear blue sky, but I’m not sure if I “got it” until this moment. As I was hours into sitting and my mind had wandered for the hundredth time that day, I realized that my mind had wandered AND THEN I realized, at that moment, that all the time my mind had been wandering, I had never once lost sight of the “clear blue sky”. Even if I wasn’t looking at it, I had real, experiential faith that it was there, had been there all along and would always be there whenever I turned my attention back to it. This understanding hasn’t faded since then.

Sorry for running long,
Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

That's great. Because I just mentioned the sky again this morning!

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/treeleaf-community-topics-about-zen-practice/540813-opening-the-hand-of-no-thought?p=540843#post540843

Gassho, J
stlah