Why we keep politics outside our Sangha doors (a discussion) ...

[Ddixon]

Thanks Jundo.

The topic has stirred a great deal of emotions, as a therapist that uses mindfulness in practice I would inquire with the individuals about what it was in Jundo's response that caused the emotional response to arise. Jundo's opinions are his, and if it triggered a reaction, then one may desire to sit longer to understand while they had such a reaction.

I know I am new here, and don't know everyone well yet. That being said, I can appreciate Jundo's stance for it is similar to our requirements in the military.

While in uniform, we were not allowed to discuss or participate in political discussions or events, as not to bring discredit or ill will to the branch of service we represented. Just like then, I see the importance of not participating in political discussions in the sangha. We are global and diverse, and politics are divisional by nature. As we can see in this thread. I know it is cheesy, though I live my life in a way to "be the change i wish to see." Politicians will come and go, and we will still retain our power to spread love, decency, and respect to all, regardless of who is in power.

These are just my opinions take them in with the grain of salt they are worth.

Gassho.

Novice Bodhisattva
Sat today.

[Mujin]

all right... nothing but cat pictures it is...

PS: actually I had to edit this because I realised the best piece of information you gave me was that I am not alone in having had arguments with Jundo and having my messages manipulated, having private messages spied on... etc It's good to know that I'm not alone...

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

Screenshot_20250121-171313_copy_475x474.png

I never stated I have ever been spied on or my messages manipulated.

[Hosai]

Screenshot_20250121-172407.png
_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,


I prefer we kept overt politics out as well, though I’m sure I’ve made a few transgressions in that regard. But if we are to stand for something, which is something we value then then that means there is also an anti-value. E.g. helping people is good so hurting people is bad or evil. That kind of thing. So, if we want this place to be open and welcoming then we are taking a stand on being open and welcoming. We can’t stand above the fray. It’s not possible as there are so many different people with different view. But we can try to create a space where we leave those things at the door.

That’s not easy, we tend to define ourselves based on some idea that resonates with us. I’m a man, I’m indigenous, I’m a communist, I’m a gamer, I’m the reincarnation of Alexander the Great's chief eunuch … There are countless others. But these ideas represent a fraction of who we are and exist only in certain contexts. But once they become an identity, they take on a central role in how we see ourselves. We take them outside the context they function in and bring in to others. I think in some ways, our practice is learning to loosen our grip on these identities. Picking them up when appropriate and then putting them down again. I recall a story my dad told me one time. We’re Newfoundlanders so most of the time we interact with other Newfoundlanders. Its not something that’s worth noting here. But one time when he was in another province, he heard one of Newfoundland accents (there are many) and suddenly he had a new friend. It was only in the context involving non-Newfoundlanders that their identity of Newfoundlander was relevant. While they were both Canadian’s it wasn’t relevant when everyone around them is Canadian. But when he went to France and heard an accent from Ontario he found himself with a new friend. These identities are aspects of our history and the story we tell ourselves about our lives and the lives of others. Which identity is important depends on the context and the meaning of these identities themselves can change when recontextualized. I’m aware that we can become trapped in these identities when others assign them to us (though it’s more likely that they find us that way) but we can’t fix that here and that’s where overt politics comes to play.

My point is the sangha is a place where everyone can come and drop our identities. But we can and should all so try and drop the identity of others as well. So instead of seeing a commie or liberal, or fascist you see another bodhisattvas who still finding their sea legs as it were. Given enough life times and they would eventually figure it all out. This isn’t easy but I think its important. I think it’s also important to return to these identities. So we complete the loop. The identities start as are solid and real, eternal and undeniable but we start to understand emptiness and the identities start to look like morning due, destined to disappear as the day grows long. But then we get up and pick them up again. But this time, hopefully, we can see how they are both real and not real at the same time. So our grip is loosened and we allow some of the more painful aspects to rise and fall with less fuss.

All that said, I do have another point to make. I think if one is really committed to the precepts that should carry over into their political activities (if they are so inclined to do such things.) I think we can all agree that the mobsters going to church in the movies weren’t very good Christians. If Tony Soprano goes to the pearly gates and say sure I killed all those people but I never missed a mass. Would that really carry weight? So I think its worth asking yourself if the people you support are going to cause significant suffering for others? If they endorse violence to their political enemies or the institutionalization of cruelty (which is already more prevalent than most realize), then I think you need try and think about it in the context of the precepts. You need to ask yourself what are your values, what’s important and why? This will also tell you what your ant-values are. So you can see the worst kinds of things a person can do and why. Sometimes we violate either the literal meaning of the precept or the spirt of the precept. Sometimes we violate both other times we uphold both. Understanding why can help you chisel away at some values if they conflict heavily with the precepts as well as maybe let you lean into others more heavily.

The last thing I will say, as I’ve prattled on enough, is that people generally do what they think is best. But what they think is best is a function of their particular understanding of the world around them (Lebenswelt) which includes how they think of other humans. Much of this understanding is not something they sought out. A lot of it’s been picked up long before they are able to make a lot of decisions for themselves. Parents will try and teach their children what’s right and wrong, what’s important, what’s not important. They do this in earnest because they want to teach their child about the world to help them not just survive but to thrive. But if they have a number of harmful views (particular aspects of their Lebenswelt) such as this group of people are subhuman they are likely to instill those views in their children. And these cycles continue until those ideas are no longer relevant (e.g. genocide) or they are replaced by other more benign views (turns out they were just regular people after all). This is just on the small scale, once we start to look at the history of countries we live in we can see how much of what we take for granted, what seem like fundamental aspects of the world, fundamental aspects of being human were the results of decisions and forces that existed long before our time. I sometimes ask myself what would have had to be different for Hitler to have just lived a normal life. Maybe a lot, maybe a little, we can’t know. But I will try and do my part promote peace tolerance and dialogue (as much as a can). Maybe it will be just the little push that someone needs or maybe it will fall on deaf ears. All we can do is try.

Most Sanghas? Probably in the West, where there is a habit of twisting things to their liking. I've had things I disagreed with Jundo about,but in the end he is the teacher, this is his Zendo.

Mugin, I think it's worth nothing that Dogen likely changed things in his sangha to meet the needs of the people there. Kazen certainly changed what was done in the temples compared to Dogen. East asian Buddhism owes a lot to Zhili who was the founder of the Tiantai (Tendai) buddhism. He was the one (there may have been others) who collected and integrated the various Mahayana sutras and put them together into to some kind of sensible whole. But it was a whole that not just reflected the sutras from India (and some Chinese) but also with a Chinese sensibility. So there is a break between the Indian Mahayana and the Chinese Mahayana but it's a break that's not really a break. A new tradition born from the older tradition with both still existing. Like a rhizome, where a shoot from a plant grows underground can grow roots and then grow into another plant. They are not the same plant but they are also the same plant. This is the same thing that's happening in the west. Japanese (and others) Buddhism is being integrated into a new society and part of it will reflect the preexisting sensibilities.

My point is if your looking for a traditional set of practices there are multiple traditions in just this one! But if your looking for the tradition, singular, you won't find it unless you prioritize the practices of a certain time period within the tradition. They are all Zen practices but some were adopted others dropped when the teacher felt it was needed sometimes for religious reasons other times because it appeased a powerful patron.

I would also add that looking for a singular version, that's the correct version, is a very western approach to things. We grow up with these influences of Christianity and one in particular has pretty wide reaching consequences. There is one God who created the world, who set down the rules for our behavior. This means there is one correct understanding, one correct set of behaviors that one must follow. Despite this there still seems to be a lot of fighting about who has the correct interpretation. The sciences follow the same kind of impulse. This is the truth about blank and it can only be arrived by look at what it's made of etc... It's all very my way or the highway. There are other ways to approach things. Different frameworks or conceptual backgrounds illuminate different aspects of a thing in question. We can argue that one is better the other but I think that doesn't really make sense until we know the context. If one wants to be entertained, a moving poem about the sun might be a better fit for the occasion that a description of the elements in it. But if one is studying for a test learning which metals are in the sun would probably be the better option.

I don't know if any of this will resonate with you but I thought it was worth considering.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Myo-jin]

So then what do you think Jundo is teaching and is qualified to teach?

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

Well he’s certainly no music teacher!

For what it’s worth, I’d have locked the thread with a gentle reminder that this is a zendo, rather than deleting altogether, but I’m a layman and have no say in these matters.

Things have not always been consistent around here with regards to such matters, sometimes the roof leaks so to speak, but there are standards.

gassho

Myojin

[IanSmith]

This pro cat sideline is clearly anti dog!!! 20140919_140523_Android.jpg
It has to stop!!!!!

[Hosai]

[SIZE=16px]Hi folks,

Good post for a Newfie....I can't respond to it really... But You better watch yourself with that Keffiyeh... someone might delete your Avatar...

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."



_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Anthony]

Sorry for the length. First, I want to say that Hosai and I probably agree politically on most issues based on what I hear him say. But I don't agree with his stance on politics here.

Everything is political,

But also there is a time and a place for everything. Some things are appropriate in some spaces and inappropriate in others. One major issue today within activism is an idea that's been termed "the everything bagel", the idea that everything must solve every problem. I'll post a section of this article to explain (I am not taking any stances on the political positions in the article, merely using them to illustrate the everything bagel):

Semiconductors are a national security priority. The high cost of building them here has become a national security liability. This reasoning was persuasive enough that the CHIPS Act passed with bipartisan support; 17 Republican senators backed the final bill. And there is a lot to like in the legislation. But it is very hard to read the guidelines the administration just released and see a serious effort to lower costs. The government is adding subsidies with one hand and layering on requirements with the other.

Page 11, for instance, encourages a pre-application that includes an environmental questionnaire “to assess the likely level of review under the National Environmental Policy Act.” Page 20 mandates that applicants prepare “an equity strategy, in concert with their partners, to create equitable work force pathways for economically disadvantaged individuals in their region,” which should include “building new pipelines for workers, including specific efforts to attract economically disadvantaged individuals and promote diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility.” Page 21 asks for a plan “to include women and other economically disadvantaged individuals in the construction industry,” “strongly encourages” the use of project labor agreements and sets out requirements for “access to child care for facility and construction workers.”

Pages 23 and 24 ask applicants to detail how they will include minority-, veteran- and female-owned businesses, as well as small businesses, in their supply chain and offer seven bullet points detailing how this might be done, including dividing supply chain requirements “into smaller tasks or quantities to expand access” and “establishing delivery schedules for subcontractors that encourage participation by small, minority-owned, veteran-owned and women-owned businesses.” Then there are requirements for “a climate and environment responsibility plan,” as well as community investments in areas like transit, affordable housing and schools.

Many of these are good goals. But are they good goals to include in this project?

“What they’re trying to do with industrial policy is incredibly difficult,” Adam Ozimek, the chief economist at the Economic Innovation Group, told me. “If you try to build a highway and your costs are too high, you just throw more money at the problem. The highway still gets built. But when you’re trying to catalyze the expansion of a globally competitive industry, there’s something pass/fail about it. That’s not the kind of environment where you want to be trying to accomplish seven or eight other goals, especially when people from that industry say the reason they don’t invest as much in the United States as they used to is the red tape and the costs.”

Like the article says, all of these are good pursuits. But do they belong in this particular project? At some point, doesn't it get in the way of the goal of building the plant? Do economic discussions of inflation belong on the basketball court? Inflation affects all of us right, including the price of basketballs. But wouldn't economic analysis get in the way of playing the basketball game?

The sangha is for zazen. Politics is important. Activism is important. But they just don't belong in the zendo. It can get in the way of practice. Maybe not for you, but it can for those around you and they deserve to have their practice as well.

And with all due respect, Hosai, I do detect aggression in your posts. A lot of it comes off as sarcasm, which feels disrespectful. I am sorry if I am misinterpreting.

gassho,
Anthony, satlah

[Seiko]

Thank you Jundo.

Gasshō, Seiko

[Koushi]

all right... nothing but cat pictures it is...

PS: actually I had to edit this because I realised the best piece of information you gave me was that I am not alone in having had arguments with Jundo and having my messages manipulated, having private messages spied on... etc It's good to know that I'm not alone...

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

I want to address the private messages portion of this post.

As one of those responsible for maintaining the forum, website, user accounts, etc., I can assure you that Jundo, our priests, or other members of the sangha cannot view your private messages/DMs.

Due to how vBulletin functions, the only plausible way to do so would be to query the database itself—which only myself and Kotei have access to—and would raise objection if the idea was even considered to do so.

Respectfully, please only write factual things. Yes, I can see how a forum post being edited = manipulated, by synonym; however, accusations of spying by the leader and teacher of the sangha, is a whole other matter.

Gassho,
Koushi
ST

[Jundo]

Regarding not talking about "politics" I think we need to define "politics" first. Do we mean "party politics" or anything that potentially belongs to the realm of politics? Because if the second, I think that we cannot talk about essential ethical questions then. Or maybe we are talking about something else? I don't know. I think that we all may have different understandings of what "not talking about politics" means.

Let's see what Jundo says.

I think the best answer is that we avoid ALMOST EVERYTHING that has to do with politics and debates about policy. Sorry, we will not talk about tariffs or tik tok or taxes or DEI or immigration policy (although we may talk about the plight of immigrants as people fleeing terrible situations) or BREXIT or gas prices. However, it is hard to be specific, hard to nail it down, so easier to say what we DO talk about as the exceptions: Certain "big picture" limited topics which touch on the PRECEPTS: The wrongness of war in general, poverty in general, homelessness in general, excess consumption in general, failing to take care of this planet as our temple in general, the plight of the displaced in general, discrimination against people for who they are in general.

We may briefly touch on some "hot button" topics like vegetarianism, abortion, guns, whether one can be police or a soldier and a Buddhist, in light of the PRECEPTS but in a civil and calm fashion, agreeing to disagree. We try to avoid long, this side/that side debates on these issues, and try to see that there are good views on all sides.

Otherwise, generally, we avoid all politics.

Let me clarify, as to Matt (Hosai), there were three or four prior cautions by me to him in the last few weeks on overtly political materials (derisive photos of Mr. Trump, for example) that he posted where I asked him not to do so. So, when he continued today after prior cautions, I took it down. After awhile, I must be firm in these things. Sorry, we have this policy even if some folks which to stamp their feet because they do not like it. It seems so far that the majority are okay with it, so I ask everyone to abide by it. Thank you.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

PS - I will just add that that I think you can see why we try to keep civil speech here, and avoid these topics, just looking at the tone and accusing and way of talking in this very thread when people do get into these debates. This is a Buddhist Sangha, not X or Facebook.

[Roo]

Hi,

Yeah. Touchy subject. I am pretty strong in my political beliefs (anarchist), as are my internet friends outside of the Sangha.

It's complicated, especially when the people who come here are directly affected by politics, and we who want all beings to be happy cannot help in a better way. I've read a bunch of the replies here and skimmed through some other parts, so I may not fully understand all that has been said (but again I am autistic)

I don't know. I think I'd be on the part to keep most political discussion away from here, as it is indeed a safe haven, but I also think we should be aware that people come here who are affected by it and may let it seep out sometimes. We may offer them grace and compassion. The Buddha certainly would have.

I do feel that the idea of talking of important matters (homelessness, greed, starvation, etc.) that pertain to the Precepts is a great one, as it opens up that aspect of talking about things that would be political but they also are connected directly to our Precepts.

Mettā to all here.

Gassho, Austin

[Hosai]

Sorry for the length. First, I want to say that Hosai and I probably agree politically on most issues based on what I hear him say. But I don't agree with his stance on politics here.

Everything is political,

But also there is a time and a place for everything. Some things are appropriate in some spaces and inappropriate in others. One major issue today within activism is an idea that's been termed "the everything bagel", the idea that everything must solve every problem. I'll post a section of this article to explain (I am not taking any stances on the political positions in the article, merely using them to illustrate the everything bagel):



Like the article says, all of these are good pursuits. But do they belong in this particular project? At some point, doesn't it get in the way of the goal of building the plant? Do economic discussions of inflation belong on the basketball court? Inflation affects all of us right, including the price of basketballs. But wouldn't economic analysis get in the way of playing the basketball game?

The sangha is for zazen. Politics is important. Activism is important. But they just don't belong in the zendo. It can get in the way of practice. Maybe not for you, but it can for those around you and they deserve to have their practice as well.

And with all due respect, Hosai, I do detect aggression in your posts. A lot of it comes off as sarcasm, which feels disrespectful. I am sorry if I am misinterpreting.

actually it's called anger.... It happens to me sometimes... some of us are very uncomfortable with it and some of us are in complete denial of it... some repress it...

I'm working on it...

and it seems like Jundo, Donald Trump and Elon Musk are trying to help me with it by pushing my buttons....


_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Hosai]

I would like to add that as we have been forbidden to discuss overtly political things in the public forums... I am of the understanding we can talk about it to our hearts content in theoretically private messages...

I would like to open the door to anybody who would like to discuss anything political and how these situations are affecting them. Please feel free to PM me.

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Mujin]

I would like to add that as we have been forbidden to discuss overtly political things in the public forums... I am of the understanding we can talk about it to our hearts content in theoretically private messages...

I would like to open the door to anybody who would like to discuss anything political and how these situations are affecting them. Please feel free to PM me.

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

Not theoretically, it was clearly stated that ARE private messages.