Why we keep politics outside our Sangha doors (a discussion) ...

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40881

    Why we keep politics outside our Sangha doors (a discussion) ...

    Dear All,

    The following is a discussion in which all Sangha members are invited to join and speak honestly. It comes after I had to delete a post by one of our members (after 3 or 4 prior cautions) which, I know, was well-meaning on their part. I wanted to explain my reasoning in doing such things from time to time.

    There are many problems in the world now, and today in America has been a day when passions are running high. I certainly have feelings about events (many of which I express elsewhere on the internet where the discussion turns to such things. I have opinions and I express them.) I am certain that you have feelings and opinions about things.

    A funny thing is that people assume that all Buddhists are rather left in their opinions. That may be true in much of Western "convert" Buddhism, but it is not universally true (For what it is worth, my own opinions are surprising diverse in fact, some left or very left, some libertarian or conservative on different issues.) There are many very conservative, moderate and non-political Buddhists, including folks quite extreme in their views too, such as "anarchist" Buddhists. In fact, maybe most Buddhists in Asia, or of Asian origins, are quite conservative in their political views (taking very conservative stances, with Buddhism "The Church" in such countries.) Yes, I have even seen a handful of NAZI/White Supremacist Buddhists, as hateful as that is, and fortunately only a very few. (LINK) Furthermore, I know ordinary Zen Buddhist friends who voted a certain way in the recent election, others who voted the other way, and they are all good people ... not terrorists, not NAZIs, not Trotskyites.

    In this Sangha, my rule is that we welcome all NON-VIOLENT, non-hateful people who are truly concerned for helping suffering sentient beings in this world, even if folks may honestly disagree on how to do that and what it means. You would be surprised, for example, but both folks who support abortion (a "right to choose") and oppose abortion ("a right to life") can be good, sincere people who honestly believe that they are doing the right thing. The Precepts allow both views (I feel) and, in fact, in Asia, tend usually and traditionally to be interpreted to oppose abortion (LINK). I have my own opinion on the matter but here, in our Sangha, when the issue comes up as part of our discussions of the "Precept to Preserve Life," we honor and respect that opinions and interpretations may disagree among good Buddhists on the matter.

    Another reason we keep politics outside the doors here is that there is SO MUCH arguing, fighting, anger, frustration on the rest of the internet, and in the world, that this Treeleaf place is a respite from that, a peaceful haven and little safe space. Leave your politics at the door, pick it up again on the way out.

    Another very important reason is that Zen is the practice of DROPPING opinions, our personal likes and dislikes, and encountering the world with radical equanimity. As one of our cherished texts, the Xinxin Ming, declares:

    至道無難 The Great Way is not difficult
    唯嫌揀擇 for those who hold no preferences.
    但莫憎愛 When longing and aversion are both absent,
    洞然明白 everything becomes clear and undisguised.
    毫釐有差 Make the smallest distinction, however,
    天地懸隔 and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
    欲得現前 If you wish to see the truth
    莫存順逆 then hold no opinion for or against.
    違順相爭 The struggle of likes and dislikes
    是爲心病 is the disease of the mind.

    We practice that as much as we can here then, when Zazen is over, we can pick up our signs, our petitions and our pens, and get back to marching, protesting or just trying to raise our families and get by. However, while here at Treeleaf, we take a little break from opinions in order to know radical acceptance of "what is."

    I know people are hurting about various situations in the world. We have members in war zones. I lost friends this past year because I expressed opinions about a certain war in a place associated with my ethnic group, and other members of the ethnic group who were old friends did not care for my opinions. Things in the news break my heart each day. I cry reading the news some days. But I preach the same as I do to folks with cancer and bad marriages, money worries and trouble with their kids ...

    .... namely, sit here for a time, and put down the cancer and family worries, the money and kids, and just sit. After you do so, the situation may still be there, but it may appear much different (somehow smaller) than before. You can still leave here and take your chemo, see a counselor, try to find a better job ... but while you are here, sit in radical allowing of all of it for a time. That is the greatest gift I can give you. Likewise for your worries about the world. There is something in this practice beyond death and sickness, free of worries, transcending left right and center, timeless even beyond the end of the world.

    We do touch on certain issues: Non-violence, preserving the environment, homelessness and poverty, protecting children, as they touch the PRECEPTS, but not as political issues. It is a fine line to walk, but I do not discuss detailed policy issues, what some politician said, who is right or wrong on this side of the war or the other. We just stand for peace, avoiding violence, protecting our planet like we clean a temple, making sure that folks have a safe place to sleep, food to eat, medicine and education. It is a fine line to walk between "precepts" and "politics," but it is a line we try to walk.

    There are other Sangha that may be more "political," but I sometimes feel that they actually do a DISSERVICE to bringing peace and compassion, understanding and healing into this world. (I was a member of a certain Buddhist organization that actually started "cancel culture" on any members who expressed views that the leaders did not like. I have seen Sangha where good Buddhists were sent running away because they were told that they "had to believe X" to be a "good Buddhist.") Treeleaf will not be such a place. So, 17 years ago, we decided on this "leave your politics at the door" policy, and it has worked. That is why this is one of the few places on the internet where people speak kindly and civilly to each other, and avoid being hotheads (generally, we have had some over the years.) There are plenty of other places, including Buddhist websites, where you can go to argue it out.

    I write very often on bringing a better future: One of peace, less poverty, a cleaner planet, more humane living conditions, access to housing and food, education and good medicine for all, recognizing our diversity in identities and abilities that is respected by all. I hope we are kinder to animals (although we have folks here who eat meat, those who do not), I hope for an end to all war (for the sake of both sides, even enemies.)

    In this day and age where the whole world is filled with "me vs. you, right and wrong, my opinion your opinion" ... we should be a peaceful haven from all that.

    If you have other views on this, please do express them.

    Gassho, Jundo
    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; Today, 12:52 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Choujou
    Member
    • Apr 2024
    • 290

    #2
    Thank you Roshi… truth be told, I’m not one for politics personally for all the same reasons. It causes division and conflict. I have my opinions, I have my views… but I keep them to myself, and I find it refreshing that we leave it at the door at Treeleaf. Politics seems to be the new sports these days… everyone has their favorite team and they’re number one! I also find it very polarized (maybe it always was).
    I remember years ago asking my dad who he voted for in an election and he looked at me and said “None of your business!”, and you know what… he’s right! Back when I was growing up, people didn’t share their views quite so openly. Maybe that was just my perception as a kid, but I found that to be what I adopted as how I handle politics in my life.
    Im not saying that politics shouldn’t be discussed, because of course it should! Politics is important, yes, but there is a time and a place… and most times and places aren’t really the right times and places. (The family dinner, a dance recital, the supermarket, comments on someone’s non -political Facebook post… NOT the right times and places!) But when I encounter that, I just keep scrolling/walk away. It’s really just that simple. No need to comment, no need to incite… just walk away or keep scrolling and look for the happy posts!

    Plus… I’d much rather discuss precepts and how to actualize them in the world. The precepts will help get more good done!

    Gassho,
    Choujou

    sat/lah today
    Last edited by Choujou; Yesterday, 11:16 AM.

    Comment

    • IanSmith
      Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 34

      #3
      Completely agree with Choujou.
      Brad Warner did one of his tube channel talks about whether a Sangha can be a democracy. His conclusion, correctly in my opinion, is it cannot.
      Gassho
      Ian
      Sat/lay today

      Comment

      • Tairin
        Member
        • Feb 2016
        • 2898

        #4
        Thank you Jundo. I appreciate the haven Treeleaf provides from divisive political discussion


        Tairin
        sat today and lah
        泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

        Comment

        • Kotei
          Dharma Transmitted Priest
          • Mar 2015
          • 4287

          #5
          Thank you, Jundo.

          Gassho,
          Kotei sat/lah today.
          義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

          Comment

          • Hosai
            Member
            • Jun 2024
            • 597

            #6
            Originally posted by Jundo
            Dear All,

            Another reason we keep politics outside the doors here is that there is SO MUCH arguing, fighting, anger, frustration on the rest of the internet, and in the world, that this Treeleaf place is a respite from that, a peaceful haven and little safe space. Leave your politics at the door, pick it up again on the way out.
            All life is our temple indeed....

            Originally posted by Jundo

            Another very important reason is that Zen is the practice of DROPPING opinions, our personal likes and dislikes, and encountering the world with radical equanimity. As one of our cherished texts, the Xinxin Ming, declares:

            至道無難 The Great Way is not difficult
            唯嫌揀擇 for those who hold no preferences.
            但莫憎愛 When longing and aversion are both absent,
            洞然明白 everything becomes clear and undisguised.
            毫釐有差 Make the smallest distinction, however,
            天地懸隔 and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
            欲得現前 If you wish to see the truth
            莫存順逆 then hold no opinion for or against.
            違順相爭 The struggle of likes and dislikes
            是爲心病 is the disease of the mind.
            Really... so do we pick and choose our race, gender, sexuality, gender identity? Do we pick our disabilities? These things deeply relate to our lives and require us to advocate for ourselves and others daily???? This is no mere opinion and it is a significant part of our lived experience and much of it relates to what brings us to Zen... This is the work of bodhisattvas....

            Originally posted by Jundo

            We practice that as much as we can here then, when Zazen is over, we can pick up our signs, our petitions and our pens, and get back to marching, protesting or just trying to raise our families and get by. However, while here at Treeleaf, we take a little break from opinions in order to know radical acceptance of "what is."
            or we realise that life is short and precious and not accept the unacceptable....

            Originally posted by Jundo
            ​​​​​
            .... namely, sit here for a time, and put down the cancer and family worries, the money and kids, and just sit. After you do so, the situation may still be there, but it may appear much different (somehow smaller) than before. You can still leave here and take your chemo, see a counselor, try to find a better job ... but while you are here, sit in radical allowing of all of it for a time. That is the greatest gift I can give you. Likewise for your worries about the world.
            That is what I do on my cushion... What I do with what comes up on my cushion is what I bring here... I don't sit here meditating at your avatars and posts...

            Originally posted by Jundo

            There are other Sangha that may be more "political," but I sometimes feel that they actually do a DISSERVICE to bringing peace and compassion, understanding and healing into this world.
            I don't know Jundo...have you polled your Sangha lately on how political they are? Have you asked them how much they care about LGBTQIA+issues? Have You asked them how much they care about accessibility issues?
            ​​​​​​
            How political are you?

            Originally posted by Jundo

            (I was a member of a certain Buddhist organization that actually started "cancel culture" on any members who expressed views that the leaders did not like. I have seen Sangha where good Buddhists were sent running away because they were told that they "had to believe X" to be a "good Buddhist.") Treeleaf will not be such a place. So, 17 years ago, we decided on this "leave your politics at the door" policy, and it has worked. That is why this is one of the few places on the internet where people speak kindly and civilly to each other, and avoid being hotheads (generally, we have had some over the years.) There are plenty of other places, including Buddhist websites, where you can go to argue it out.
            Many of us don't frequent those types of places and are capable of having civil discussion here. In fact there seems to be very few places where one can talk, Open-Mindedly ,constructively and honestly and in a healing way about the issues that come up in the world and our Lives.... I agree there has been a coming of age for wokeness... and there is such a thing as "oppressive wokeness".... But I think we can all see that it is literally the result of being oppressed.... It's all that internalised opression coming back out again... But we need to keep the conversation going so that we can start talking about things like the reversal of cancel culture which is referred to as "uncanceling" or "redemption culture". It emphasizes giving people a chance to apologize, learn, and re-enter public favor after being "canceled." It reflects a focus on forgiveness, growth, and moving beyond past mistakes rather than permanent ostracization.
            ​​​​​
            Granted I would agree that perhaps there would need to be a special part of the forum for that type of discussion. But to ban talking about entire chunks of who we are, and about issues that we care about deeply and that bring us to Zen practise.... we might as well sit around and post cat pictures all day...

            Screenshot_20250121-063549_copy_210x328.png

            _/\_
            sat/ah
            hōsai

            防災 Hōsai - Dharma Gatherer

            Comment

            • Kotei
              Dharma Transmitted Priest
              • Mar 2015
              • 4287

              #7
              After thinking a moment longer...
              I'd like this to be a place of refuge.
              From my turbulent mind, from picking and choosing, from acting on gut reactions, from everyday mind.
              This is what makes it possible for me to act out in the world for what I think is right, with a more balanced view and without violating the precepts.
              Walking from being agitated by what happens in the world to returning to practice to acting "out there" for what I think is right.

              Gassho,
              Kotei sat/lah today.
              義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

              Comment

              • Hosai
                Member
                • Jun 2024
                • 597

                #8
                Originally posted by Kotei
                After thinking a moment longer...
                I'd like this to be a place of refuge.
                From my turbulent mind, from picking and choosing, from acting on gut reactions, from everyday mind.
                This is what makes it possible for me to act out in the world for what I think is right, with a more balanced view and without violating the precepts.
                Walking from being agitated by what happens in the world to returning to practice to acting "out there" for what I think is right.

                Gassho,
                Kotei sat/lah today.
                You say ...after thinking a moment longer... which leads me to believe there was a brief moment that you did not think this way.

                How do you explain what's in Jundo's signature... "All life is our temple?"

                gut reactions can be good and can keep us safe.... everyday mind IS the way....

                I also think there's some very oppressive power dynamics at play....

                Very few are going to say what they really think when their name is attached to it, which is why I have included the following survey

                "The personal is political" is a feminist slogan highlighting how personal experiences, particularly those of women and LGBTQIA+, are shaped by broader social and political structures. It emphasizes that issues often dismissed as private or individual, such as domestic labor, reproductive rights, or gender roles, are deeply connected to systemic inequalities and require collective political action for change. Jundo has effectively prevented us from sharing this personal aspect of who we are and what is ostensibly a large part of our life. I would like to gather some information in an anonymous way to see how widespread this sentiment is to the users of Treeleaf.org and those who call themselves part of the sangha. The results will be shared with the Sangha.


                _/\_
                sat/ah
                hōsai
                防災 Hōsai - Dharma Gatherer

                Comment

                • Kensho
                  Member
                  • Jan 2025
                  • 4

                  #9
                  Thank you, Jundo.

                  I, too, have been part of communities, jobs, and friendships that have used political policy positions as walls to keep others out.

                  It reminds me of Dogen: "Cleansing body and mind, spreading scented oil on the body after removing dirt, is a primary buddha dharma."

                  How can we cleanse the mind, if it is covered in the worries of the world?

                  Gassho
                  Sat/lah

                  Comment

                  • Kotei
                    Dharma Transmitted Priest
                    • Mar 2015
                    • 4287

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Hosai

                    You say ...after thinking a moment longer... which leads me to believe there was a brief moment that you did not think this way.

                    How do you explain what's in Jundo's signature... "All life is our temple?"

                    gut reactions can be good and can keep us safe.... everyday mind IS the way....

                    I also think there's some very oppressive power dynamics at play....

                    Very few are going to say what they really think when their name is attached to it, which is why I have included the following survey


                    _/\_
                    sat/ah
                    hōsai
                    Hey Hōsai,
                    with "after thinking a moment longer" I meant something like adding to my initial "Thank you Jundo" without further words, reply.

                    I think it is good to react on "gut reactions" when it comes to survival instincts and automatic reactions in situations that are more related to the physical world.
                    I think it is not a good idea to react on gut reactions in the world of interpersonal social relationships, but rather use them in a more informational way.
                    I believe I learned through our practice to spot emotions, gut reactions, before they lead to action and be able to choose to some extend what is developing from them ("Nurturing seeds" practice). That is what I meant with helping me keeping the precepts.

                    I have quite strong political opinions and am working for making a difference in the world according to what I think right.
                    But pausing that perspective of believing to know and having to discuss what is right and what wrong and this vs. that and us vs. them,
                    got more and more important for me.
                    Taking some distance from myself and all I believe helps me making better, less emotion driven, less self focused, decisions.

                    I understand "All of life is our temple" as seeing everything, everyday life "out there" and "in here" as sacred and special and an expression of the Dharma.
                    But that doesn't mean I need to behave in a temple like in a bar.

                    I don't know a way to express what agitates me in politics and not fall into political debates. That is why I like to keep them out here.
                    I think it a minimal workaround to have a balanced essay from our guiding teacher to address these things and point back to practice as a kind of "coping mechanism" for the agitation.

                    I don't like that survey. It is biased and has this "revolution" feeling to it. But that is just my personal view.
                    I know you mean it as productive tool and I understand how this teacher-> student relationship can feel at times.

                    Just my 2 cents. And way too many words. Sorry.
                    Gassho,
                    Kotei sat/lah today.




                    義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

                    Comment

                    • Kokuu
                      Dharma Transmitted Priest
                      • Nov 2012
                      • 6904

                      #11
                      I don't know Jundo...have you polled your Sangha lately on how political they are? Have you asked them how much they care about LGBTQIA+issues? Have You asked them how much they care about accessibility issues?
                      As a sangha we strive to be inclusive in terms of LGBTQIA+ issues having priests and many members falling under that umbrella and many members who are very welcome. We do not tolerate homophobia or transphobia. As regards accessibility, Treeleaf is one of the few places that priests with severe disability can train.

                      Many people here have strong political views and are active in terms of campaigning for what they are passionate about in their lives. I have previously stood for local office for a political party and been engaged in political activity since my 20s. However, Treeleaf does not take a political stance beyond that of inclusivity, accessibility and the wish for all beings to be free from suffering.

                      Everyone is free to come here and practice and then take their practice into the world. For some that might be disabilty activism or LGBTQIA+ rights. Others might be anti-abortion, feeling that in tune with the first precept. Traditional Buddhist countries actually tend to be pretty conservative on issues that western Buddhist converts tend to see more liberally.

                      What we have found is that political discussions here tend a) to end up in very heated and divisive discussions and, b) tend to bemostly focussed on north American politics. So, we put down our politics at the door and pick them up again on the way out. No one is excluded for their political views, but there is a limitation on discussing them here.

                      All sanghas have rules and this is one of ours. Can it be frustrating at times? Certainly. Frustration is part of practice and we can observe how our mind reacts when it comes up against conditions we would rather were otherwise.

                      I agree with you that the personal is the political and we are free to talk of personal struggles and how we deal with them.

                      Gassho
                      Kokuu
                      -sattoday/lah-
                      Last edited by Kokuu; Yesterday, 01:35 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Hosai
                        Member
                        • Jun 2024
                        • 597

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kotei

                        I don't like that survey. It is biased and has this "revolution" feeling to it. But that is just my personal view.
                        I know you mean it as productive tool and I understand how this teacher-> student relationship can feel at times.

                        Just my 2 cents. And way too many words. Sorry.
                        Glad to know you have some political opinions (It's impossible not to.... as not having an opinion on politics is an opinion) Although how I would have found out without raising this discussion is beyond me...

                        I am open to changing the language in the questions to make it less "revolutionary"... But they really are basic questions that I think some of the Sangha might want to hear. Especially when it's completely anonymous unlike the forum itself. Since I've been here, I've seen several people's messages deleted, edited, censored I've seen at least four people banned (Yes, temporarily in theory)....

                        Is there such thing as an anonymous suggestion box in this place?

                        At any given moment there is a teacher and a student. There is a guest and a host. There is speaking and there is listening. Thank you for listening...

                        _/\_
                        sat/ah
                        hōsai
                        防災 Hōsai - Dharma Gatherer

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40881

                          #13
                          It is fine if you vent for awhile, Matt.

                          Please try to keep things civil and polite.

                          Gassho, Jundo
                          stlah
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Shoshin
                            Member
                            • Jul 2024
                            • 242

                            #14
                            Thanks, Jundo, for taking care of the Sangha.
                            I'll start by saying that I agree that it's better to avoid politics here. Certainly it is a very fine line to walk, though because almost everything can be seen as politics in some sense. But I certainly think it's better to avoid "party politics".

                            I am very passionate about certain topics like immigration, animal rights (of which I'm an activist), minorities rights etc and I am an anarchist.
                            But most of the people that I love, except my husband, disagree with me in, at least, one or two of my points of view. Even my husband and I disagree when it comes to abortion.
                            Some members of my family are far right. Like really far right.
                            I'm Spanish. Spain was torn apart because of a civil war. Members of the same family found themselves in opposite bands. The pain of the war can still be felt in our bones.
                            All this has taught me a lot. And it keeps on teaching me every time one of my friends tells me they had a wonderful dinner with animal flesh and every time that one of my relatives expresses "how well things went with Franco". In those instances I just try to focus on how much I love them. It, also, helps me to see with more patience and compassion other people that disagree with me too.

                            I believe that, within an intentional community as a Sangha is, love and trust are the medicine to division. To love others as they are or at least, as Jundo said, to trust that they are all good people meaning well. People that want to see a kinder world but disagree on what it means and on how to get there.

                            At the same time, since we are humans and sometimes patience, love and trust can be less accessible to us than other times: yes, I agree that keeping (party) politics out of the equation is better.
                            ​​​​

                            I think that talking about sensitive topics is unavoidable in a philosophical context as a Sangha is. So, when it happens I think it's important that not only we trust that the other person means well but also that we trust that the other person trusts that we mean well. I know it sounds complicated but I promise that in my head it makes sense

                            Gassho,
                            Satlah
                            Last edited by Shoshin; Yesterday, 02:42 PM.
                            Shōshin - Pine Heart 松心

                            Comment

                            • Meishin
                              Member
                              • May 2014
                              • 863

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jundo
                              In this day and age where the whole world is filled with "me vs. you, right and wrong, my opinion your opinion" ... we should be a peaceful haven from all that.
                              Thank you, Jundo.

                              Gassho
                              Meishin
                              stlah

                              Comment

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