Why we keep politics outside our Sangha doors (a discussion) ...

[Hosai]

I would also like to be clear this all started because Jundo deleted the message below... This was very small P Political.... and but for Jundo's censorship I would have gone no further... It was a message that I felt was balanced and spoke to how I was feeling. to let others in the sangha who are as upset by recent events.....that I feel it very deeply and we are all in this together...etc Oh yeah by the way Loryn Brantz worked on Sesame Street.... I guess that's the state of politics these days....

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai


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[Mujin]

I would also like to be clear this all started because Jundo deleted the message below... This was very small P Political.... and but for Jundo's censorship I would have gone no further... It was a message that I felt was balanced and spoke to how I was feeling. to let others in the sangha who are as upset by recent events.....that I feel it very deeply and we are all in this together...etc Oh yeah by the way Loryn Brantz worked on Sesame Street.... I guess that's the state of politics these days....

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai


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So the acceptance you are demanding of your views doesn't apply to someone's right to edit their own message?

[Mujin]

Yeah actually I was going to bring him up.... clearly the apples haven't fallen too far from the Dharma tree. But these two teachers way of dealing with their Sangha is actually in the minority.

Most Zen/buddhist Sanghas (not to mention a whole bunch of Christian denominations) these days have boards of directors and can fire the teacher if they breach ethics.

And while they are not total democracies (having a small council or board) they are definitely not dictatorships. Alas, gone are the good old days....

But it's interesting. A number of very well educated people have suggested that in order to solve the many crises of today (like climate change) a democracy that changes leadership every 4 years or so is absolutely the problem....

But when it comes to one guy and a whole bunch of vulnerable, disabled and marginalised people.... I don't know.....you're kind of asking for trouble....

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

Most Sanghas? Probably in the West, where there is a habit of twisting things to their liking. I've had things I disagreed with Jundo about,but in the end he is the teacher, this is his Zendo.

[Shoshin]

Interesting.
I'm from Europe and living in Europe, although I daily read the international news and I'm aware of the political situation in the States.
I'm going to speak from my humble point of view. I'm open to be corrected.
If this poem is seen as something that can create division I think that it speaks more of a division that already exists than of the division that it actually can create.
I'm really sorry that there is so much pain already that a poem like this can hurt that much.
I'm not naive. I'm not saying that it doesn't come across as a (party) political statement. It's a political statement indeed
But still, even if someone disagrees and thinks that the new government is not bringing hate, fear and misinformation, can't we really talk about this from compassion and love with our spiritual siblings as we would with a blood sibling? If we can't do it, who can?

Metta and Gassho,
Satlah

[IanSmith]

For anyone who's interested here's Brad Warners video, "can zen be democratic." In which he quotes Nishijima roshi as answering, no it cannot. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GSWIMVFYVn8
Gassho
Ian
Sat/lah today

[Hosai]

Most Sanghas? Probably in the West, where there is a habit of twisting things to their liking. I've had things I disagreed with Jundo about,but in the end he is the teacher, this is his Zendo.

1. Yes and Trump is president....

2. Yes I live in the West... soooo.....

3. It's called the triple gem not the single gem for a reason....

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Myo-jin]

Thanks Jundo,

Actually one of the reasons I came back to Treeleaf was that it was an online haven from politics. There are plenty of places to have those discussions, and they need to be had, but my sense is that the point of a Sangha is the teaching and practice of Zen, and that alone.

If I went to a music class and the teacher started teaching about the importance of safe driving (as important as that is in its context) I'd get up and leave, that's not what I went there for.

I get that people are suffering from politics, and from a lot of other things, I have my own problems that I don't bring to the Sangha because this place isn't a councillors office. Although I try to use what I learn on the cushion to improve life for myself and my family (as well as all sentient beings), without the basic awareness, precepts and sutras are just so much prose (as Bodhidharma put it), so here we practice, out there we put the dharma into practice.

Gassho
Sattlah

Myojin

[Hosai]

So the acceptance you are demanding of your views doesn't apply to someone's right to edit their own message?

Huh? I don't need your acceptance and edit your message anyway you like....

I definitely don't like having MY messages edited which happened a few times here at Treeleaf... as far as I'm concerned, that's provocative....

Sounds like you'd be interested in leading a totalitarian Sangha someday.

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[IanSmith]

Myo-jin is completely correct.
I thank you for your eloquence.
Gassho
Ian
Sat/lay today

[Hosai]

Thanks Jundo,

Actually one of the reasons I came back to Treeleaf was that it was an online haven from politics. There are plenty of places to have those discussions, and they need to be had, but my sense is that the point of a Sangha is the teaching and practice of Zen, and that alone.

If I went to a music class and the teacher started teaching about the importance of safe driving (as important as that is in its context) I'd get up and leave, that's not what I went there for.

So then what do you think Jundo is teaching and is qualified to teach?

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Mujin]

Huh? I don't need your acceptance and edit your message anyway you like....

I definitely don't like having MY messages edited which happened a few times here at Treeleaf... as far as I'm concerned, that's provocative....

Sounds like you'd be interested in leading a totalitarian Sangha someday.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

He owns this message board, the right to edit is inherent in ownership. As far as your final sentence, I'd hope to run a genuine Sangha, true to the tradition. Your insinuation seems to want to bait an argument or be a thinly veiled insult. Neither supports your position very well.

[Hosai]

I'll start by saying that I think Kokuu's post summarizes well my feelings about this topic. And since I can't actually type at the moment I will be brief.

I think it is important to remember that Treeleaf is Sanga that happens to be online. We are not an online Soto Zen in forum that happens to be a Sanga. And because we are truly an online sangha we have a certain structure and hierarchy that is common to all Zen Sangas. We have a teacher, we have priests in various stages of training, and we have members. As others have pointed out a songga is not a democracy. At the end of the day it is the teachers prerogative to decide on the direction of training within the sanga. This is the way.

You can agree or disagree with the direction the teacher takes. And then it is up to you to decide what you want to do based on your experiences. I know that many of the priests in training, including myself, have, at times, disagreed with some of the decisions that judo has made. At the end of the day, it is his house and his rules. And I trust he will keep us on the path that is best for the Sangha as a whole.

One of the things that I have learned during my times of disagreement with Judo, is that when I find agitation arising within me it is likely due to an attachment I have to an idea. The stronger the attachment the stronger the reaction. And this gives me an opportunity to work on my attachments and to understand better why, for me, it is such an agitating issue.

To me there are plenty of spaces I can work on "political" issues. For example, I am in the training program for the Zen Peacemakers Order. But they are not a Sangha and so the rules are different.

At the end of the day, I am thankful that I have a place like Treeleaf where I can focus on learning the Dharma.

Gassho,

Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Yes and but for having the disagreement and allowing the emotion to surface we may not get a clear look...

cat posters and rainbows will only get us so far...

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Hosai]

He owns this message board, the right to edit is inherent in ownership. As far as your final sentence, I'd hope to run a genuine Sangha, true to the tradition. Your insinuation seems to want to bait an argument or be a thinly veiled insult. Neither supports your position very well.

all right... nothing but cat pictures it is...

PS: actually I had to edit this because I realised the best piece of information you gave me was that I am not alone in having had arguments with Jundo and having my messages manipulated, having private messages spied on... etc It's good to know that I'm not alone...

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

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[Bion]

Let us please make a difference between discussing politics, and discussing how one is affected or has their practice challenged by the political environment that is inescapable. I doubt anyone is coming here suggesting this should be turned into a political debate arena. I am pretty sure Hosai is not advocating for that either. I doubt anyone comes to a Zendo looking for that.
The tone in this thread has sort of shifted to a bit more aggressive than I think it needs to be and given this is all in written form, I don't think it is the most beneficial thing.
The main question in most of our practice is ¨is this appropriate for here and now¨ ? I think it's essential we hold that question in front of ourselves and see all the angles of it as we're here engaging in this discussion. Everyone brings a point of view, an opinion, some stubbornness or strictness, something unique and personal, so let us acknowledge those differences and how they shape the conversation and take into account that they are part of the here and now we are engaging with.

Gassho
sat lah

[Mujin]

Let us please make a difference between discussing politics, and discussing how one is affected or has their practice challenged by the political environment that is inescapable. I doubt anyone is coming here suggesting this should be turned into a political debate arena. I am pretty sure Hosai is not advocating for that either. I doubt anyone comes to a Zendo looking for that.
The tone in this thread has sort of shifted to a bit more aggressive than I think it needs to be and given this is all in written form, I don't think it is the most beneficial thing.
The main question in most of our practice is ¨is this appropriate for here and now¨ ? I think it's essential we hold that question in front of ourselves and see all the angles of it as we're here engaging in this discussion. Everyone brings a point of view, an opinion, some stubbornness or strictness, something unique and personal, so let us acknowledge those differences and how they shape the conversation and take into account that they are part of the here and now we are engaging with.

Gassho
sat lah

Thank you for your wisdom and clarity