Why we keep politics outside our Sangha doors (a discussion) ...

[Chikyou]

I kind of like Matt’s suggestion of a separate forum section for discussion of politics and other difficult worldly issues. At the same time, I fear it will “poison the well” so to speak. I don’t think I would want to risk it. As a genderfluid person I am someone who feels pretty unsafe in the world right now; but I feel perfectly safe HERE, at TreeLeaf. I appreciate all the hard work and difficult decisions that get made behind the scenes here to keep it that way.

I spend a lot of time in other parts of the web where I couldn’t scroll five posts yesterday without seeing a certain famous person doing a certain thing - here I know my mental health can get a break. It’s a refuge. I like that.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Shoshin]

I'd like to add something to my previous post to make my point clearer. I think that we need to be clear about what we mean by "political topics that cannot be brought up here". Otherwise we won't be able to be clear about what we can talk about here and what we can't.
I tried already to touch on this by using the expression "party politics" to refer to the aspects of politics that I agree that is better not to talk about here.
But I also said that I believe that almost everything is politics and I really mean it. So, there are sensitive topics that, as I said, as a community that deals with ethics we need to be able to talk about. And yes, they can be considered "politics". I do consider them politics. And yet I think we need to talk about them.

So, I need more clarity on what are the things that we are asked not to talk about.
I hope my request makes sense.

Hosai I found your survey interesting. I was going to answer it but some questions where not clear enough to me or where formulated in a way that was ambiguous (not on purpose, I know. Or maybe I just lack the knowledge of the context as I'm very new here) I'm happy to answer the questions if you reformulate them. I'm not sure of the purpose of the survey, (and I'm curious about it) but I'm happy to answer anyway

Edit: I answered and added some notes where I needed to clarify


Gassho,
Satlah

[Mujin]

Glad to know you have some political opinions (It's impossible not to.... as not having an opinion on politics is an opinion) Although how I would have found out without raising this discussion is beyond me...

I am open to changing the language in the questions to make it less "revolutionary"... But they really are basic questions that I think some of the Sangha might want to hear. Especially when it's completely anonymous unlike the forum itself. Since I've been here, I've seen several people's messages deleted, edited, censored I've seen at least four people banned (Yes, temporarily in theory)....

Is there such thing as an anonymous suggestion box in this place?

At any given moment there is a teacher and a student. There is a guest and a host. There is speaking and there is listening. Thank you for listening...

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

With respect, I find the aggressiveness of your comments on this thread unnecessary. You, frankly, give a perfect example in support of Jundo's position. You can talk politics all you want, elsewhere.

Gassho

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

[IanSmith]

Spot on Mujin
Gassho
Sat/lah today

[Shinshi]

I'll start by saying that I think Kokuu's post summarizes well my feelings about this topic. And since I can't actually type at the moment I will be brief.

I think it is important to remember that Treeleaf is Sanga that happens to be online. We are not an online Soto Zen in forum that happens to be a Sanga. And because we are truly an online sangha we have a certain structure and hierarchy that is common to all Zen Sangas. We have a teacher, we have priests in various stages of training, and we have members. As others have pointed out a songga is not a democracy. At the end of the day it is the teachers prerogative to decide on the direction of training within the sanga. This is the way.

You can agree or disagree with the direction the teacher takes. And then it is up to you to decide what you want to do based on your experiences. I know that many of the priests in training, including myself, have, at times, disagreed with some of the decisions that judo has made. At the end of the day, it is his house and his rules. And I trust he will keep us on the path that is best for the Sangha as a whole.

One of the things that I have learned during my times of disagreement with Judo, is that when I find agitation arising within me it is likely due to an attachment I have to an idea. The stronger the attachment the stronger the reaction. And this gives me an opportunity to work on my attachments and to understand better why, for me, it is such an agitating issue.

To me there are plenty of spaces I can work on "political" issues. For example, I am in the training program for the Zen Peacemakers Order. But they are not a Sangha and so the rules are different.

At the end of the day, I am thankful that I have a place like Treeleaf where I can focus on learning the Dharma.

Gassho,

Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Naiko]

I believe everything is political. I also have very strong opinions on certain topics. While there are times I find the ban limiting (no discussion of vegetarian/vegan diets, as one example), I respect the ban and mostly agree with it. I often struggle with right speech in political discussions, and that’s not how I want to conduct myself here. I am reminded to view Treeleaf as not a forum although it’s a forum.

Naiko
stlah

[Shoshin]

With respect, I find the aggressiveness of your comments on this thread unnecessary. You, frankly, give a perfect example in support of Jundo's position. You can talk politics all you want, elsewhere.

Gassho

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

I don't hear agression on Hoshai's comments. I hear concern and doubt. Challenge, perhaps?
Let's not assume the intentions of others. If we have doubts about someone's intentions we can always ask. Specially if we believe that the intentions are less than nice.
Let's meet each other with trust, please. Even when we believe we "know".


Regarding not talking about "politics" I think we need to define "politics" first. Do we mean "party politics" or anything that potentially belongs to the realm of politics? Because if the second, I think that we cannot talk about essential ethical questions then. Or maybe we are talking about something else? I don't know. I think that we all may have different understandings of what "not talking about politics" means.

Let's see what Jundo says.

Gassho,
Satlah

[Mujin]

I don't hear agression on Hoshai's comments. I hear concern and doubt. Challenge, perhaps?
Let's not assume the intentions of others. If we have doubts about someone's intentions we can always ask. Specially if we believe that the intentions are less than nice.
Let's meet each other with trust, please. Even when we believe we "know".


Regarding not talking about "politics" I think we need to define "politics" first. Do we mean "party politics" or anything that potentially belongs to the realm of politics? Because if the second I think that we cannot talk about essential ethical questions. Or maybe we are talking about something else? I don't know. I think that we all different understandings of what "not talking about politics" means.

Let's see what Jundo says.

Gassho,
Satlah

There was no assumption. The aggression was obvious. As far as politics, I believe Jundo already has said his position on the matter.

[Shoshin]

There was no assumption. The aggression was obvious. As far as politics, I believe Jundo already has said his position on the matter.

Not obvious for me, really.

Yes, Jundo has expressed his position. And to be clear I'm not questioning it at all. Even if I disagreed I would wholeheartedly respect it and trust it.
The thing is that after reading his post more than once and after reading everyone's posts I'm unsure, honestly unsure, of what we are supposed not to talk about (and I wonder if maybe not everyone is understanding the same).

I'm not "officially" in the spectrum but I have some traits and I tend to understand things very literally. It sometimes makes it difficult for me to "read between lines" and I often need requests to be very specific.

Could someone clarify if Jundo refers to what I'm calling "party politics"? If that's the case it would be ok to talk about abortion, for example, as an ethical/cultural/sociological/historical matter, but we should avoid mentioning any parties, laws or politicians.
Am I, in your understanding, understanding it correctly?

As I said, I actually would agree with avoiding talking about party politics.
And even if I'm misunderstanding and I happen to disagree with what Jundo actually means I'll trust (and obviously respect) his decision. I'm here to learn.

Gassho,
Satlah

[Seiga]

I like the cat.

gasshō
seiga
satlah

[IanSmith]

Most definateiy a lovely cat
Gassho
Ian
Sat/lah today

[IanSmith]

"When troubles come, they come not single spies but in battalions." (Claudius, Hamlet Act IV, Scene V).

Gasho
Ian
Sat/Lay today

[DallasP]

A very touchy subject in the climate of today. Not just in the US either. It would seem, if one spends any time on the internet at least, that there seems to be an overall lack of empathy and compassion across the globe. But, concerning politics, at one time I was quite vocal about politics. I found that the more I worried over it, the more I found myself riding the horse of my emotion-driven habit energy of reacting. This lead to no small amounts of anxiety and depression.

I have since focused on trying to apply Buddhist principles to my daily life, the Eightfold Path, and Zazen even when I have small moments of downtime at work. I am more concerned right now about trying to find ways I can show compassion to others regardless of who they are and trying to find ways to show compassion to myself. After all, how can we show compassion for others if we haven’t learned to have it with ourselves yet? (though, I am now very aware that there is no self and all of my prior anger at the situation of the world is of my brain’s own making and my ego pitching a fit because the world is not how I thought it should be)

Perhaps I’m rambling now, long story short, things be crazy. Love one another no matter who they are and sit zazen.

Gassho, Dallas
Sat-LaH.

[Hosai]

Completely agree with Choujou.
Brad Warner did one of his tube channel talks about whether a Sangha can be a democracy. His conclusion, correctly in my opinion, is it cannot.
Gassho
Ian
Sat/lay today

Yeah actually I was going to bring him up.... clearly the apples haven't fallen too far from the Dharma tree. But these two teachers way of dealing with their Sangha is actually in the minority.

Most Zen/buddhist Sanghas (not to mention a whole bunch of Christian denominations) these days have boards of directors and can fire the teacher if they breach ethics.

And while they are not total democracies (having a small council or board) they are definitely not dictatorships. Alas, gone are the good old days....

But it's interesting. A number of very well educated people have suggested that in order to solve the many crises of today (like climate change) a democracy that changes leadership every 4 years or so is absolutely the problem....

But when it comes to one guy and a whole bunch of vulnerable, disabled and marginalised people.... I don't know.....you're kind of asking for trouble....

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Hosai]

With respect, I find the aggressiveness of your comments on this thread unnecessary. You, frankly, give a perfect example in support of Jundo's position. You can talk politics all you want, elsewhere.

Gassho

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

Yeah, tone is really hard to convey over text, which is one reason why we should choose our words carefully. And actually you're proving MY point which is that we can disagree and learn something about the other's position (talking politics or not). If it's done right and kept civil.

But anyways I'm not really talking politics....I'm talking about how angry this makes me:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-sign-orders-ending-diversity-programs-proclaiming-there-are-only-two-sexes-2025-01-20/

and
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...criticism/amp/

and

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna186591

This is not politics... I don't get to vote on the guy who's doing all this crap... This is my country's future (Canada).... my livelihood... my gender....etc... are you telling me that these things are not what Zen is about?

What does ALL OF OUR LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE mean to you?

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai