Zazen and Posture Frustration

[Anthony]

Sorry for running long!

Recently I've been reading Kosho Uchiyama's "Opening the Hand of Thought" which is just a terrific book. I really loved his explanation of zazen (in chapter 3) where he describes that zazen is about keeping the posture, inevitably drifting off into your thoughts, and then opening the hand of thought to wake up and return to your posture. Several times in that section, he impresses that the posture is the most important thing. I'm not doing it justice, but his explanation was so well done that I found myself inspired.

Only problem is now when I do zazen, I find myself frustrated by my inability to keep the posture! It is very difficult for me to keep my back straight and my upper back muscles (right below my shoulders I think?) get very tight and a bit sore. I sit for 20 minutes daily nowadays.

All throughout my life I've been a sloucher and have maintained bad posture. I'm 28 now and I'm in physical therapy for lower back pain related to my poor posture. The therapy is specifically focused around improving my posture and strengthening the muscles related to keeping a good posture.

This has made me *hyper-aware* of my posture during zazen, so I was already struggling with frustration before having read Uchiyama. Now, my frustration is doubled. I keep having to fight off thoughts about my posture being inadequate and about feeling my weakness.

My last few sits have not been nice at all, in fact I've gotten a bit sad and upset during them. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced something similar?

Gassho, Anthony
satlah

[Bion]

Hi, Anthony. I'll stick to simply addressing the issue of what might be affecting you, and withhold comments on the importance or not of posture.
I struggle with a tight and sore back most of the time. Leaning forward or backwards too much can lead to back pain. Where you sit on the cushion matters as well, whether you're too forward on it or leaning to one side or the other. Sometimes, a cushion under the hands to raise them a bit can help tremendously with tension in the upper back. Stretching before zazen is also very very helpful and as a matter of fact there isn't a single zazen instruction that does not include swaying left and right, or clockwise once you're seated, to find the center of gravity and stretch the muscles before settling into sitting. All of it plays a part.
Of course, being overly concerned with posture makes that physical aspect the focus of your zazen. We do the best we can to have a stable posture and maintain it once seated, but zazen is not about enduring anything. Sometimes it hurts and that's fine, and sometimes it hurts and we shift and that's fine too.
I hope some of this helps!

Gassho
sat lah

[Onkai]

Hi Anthony. I do reclining zazen. Jundo has said that the Buddha did reclining zazen when he wasn't feeling well. With some exercise I hope to do sitting zazen again - it's more convenient, but in Treeleaf we work with the body, not against it.

Gassho Onkai

[Jundo]

Sorry for running long!

Recently I've been reading Kosho Uchiyama's "Opening the Hand of Thought" which is just a terrific book. I really loved his explanation of zazen (in chapter 3) where he describes that zazen is about keeping the posture, inevitably drifting off into your thoughts, and then opening the hand of thought to wake up and return to your posture. Several times in that section, he impresses that the posture is the most important thing. I'm not doing it justice, but his explanation was so well done that I found myself inspired.

Only problem is now when I do zazen, I find myself frustrated by my inability to keep the posture! It is very difficult for me to keep my back straight and my upper back muscles (right below my shoulders I think?) get very tight and a bit sore. I sit for 20 minutes daily nowadays.

All throughout my life I've been a sloucher and have maintained bad posture. I'm 28 now and I'm in physical therapy for lower back pain related to my poor posture. The therapy is specifically focused around improving my posture and strengthening the muscles related to keeping a good posture.

This has made me *hyper-aware* of my posture during zazen, so I was already struggling with frustration before having read Uchiyama. Now, my frustration is doubled. I keep having to fight off thoughts about my posture being inadequate and about feeling my weakness.

My last few sits have not been nice at all, in fact I've gotten a bit sad and upset during them. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced something similar?

Gassho, Anthony
satlah

HI Anthony,

There are several ways to sit Shikantaza that vary by where one places the attention ... for example, following the breath, in the palm of the hand (recommended by Rujing, Dogen's Teacher, and possibly Dogen's way), keeping the posture or (what I recommend for those who can) "open spacious awareness." Like some Japanese sitters, Uchiyama Roshi was about "returning to the posture" (Nishijima Roshi shared in that), but it is not really the only way or necessary for all sitters, especially if there are physical limitations. I much more recommend to find ANY way to sit (or, if there is physical need, even recline) that feels as balanced, stable and comfortable as your own particular body will allow ... and then forget about the posture. Adjust from time to time if needed, but then drop the posture from mind again.

Return to sitting in radical equanimity, in the completeness of sitting for sitting's sake with nothing lacking, letting thoughts go, untangled from circumstances. That is far, far more important in Shikantaza that keeping a certain posture.

Alas, many Japanese sitters overly fetishize the Lotus Posture in ways not found in other Buddhist places in Asia. It is not strictly necessary. I would ignore that portion of Uchiyama Roshi's explanation, and substitute "return to following the breath" or "return to Open Spacious Awareness" whenever he starts talking about posture. The Lotus is a wonderful, balanced, stable posture for those who can manage so, like many Japanese folks of certain build and generation (younger Japanese folks struggle more.) It is not the only such posture, and the Lotus itself works no special magic. A balanced and stable posture facilitates a balanced and stable mind, but there are many more balanced and stable postures than just one. The posture is not necessary to such a mind, only helpful.

The above comment on Zazen has nothing to do with whether you should improve your posture in general, and various stretches and exercises you should do to improve your posture in daily life. That is a good thing, especially if your doctor recommends. I am merely talking about whether it is necessary to keep a certain posture in Zazen. It is not.

For an excellent guide to finding the posture(s) (because there can be more than one) right for your body, I recommend this book ...

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/teacher-talks-tips/teacher-talks-tips-aa/vital-points-of-shikantaza-zazen/2139-book-recommendation-the-posture-of-meditation#post2139

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Tai Shi]

I have a spinal disease called Ankylosing Spondylitis and two artificial knees, and legs that do not respond, and, yet, I have heard of sitting upright in a chair with feet on the floor, and even then, I must use a back rest, and sometimes arm rests. I have been sitting Shikantaza for more than ten years with good instruction from Jundo (see his videos on sitting and read his various notes) and I have sometimes heard sitting in a chair called the "Tall Mountain" pose.

Gassho
lah/sat
Tai Shi

[IanSmith]

Putting aside which posture you decide to use ,I have found yoga beneficial in many ways in increasing flexibility, balance ,strength and easing tension in the body. Many years ago when I practiced Shotokan karate, my sensei incorporated yoga in our class and i still find it beneficial today, albeit in a reduced form.

Gassho
ian
satlah

[Chikyou]

I have similar issues with my back muscles! Sitting seiza, with an extra tall zafu (I got mine from DharmaCrafts) was a game changer. I went from shoulder blades burning after 10 or 15 minutes to getting through a Rohatsu retreat with very little back pain (knees were another story! )

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Kojitsu]

Hi Anthony,
I struggle with posture as well. I recently got a posture correction device, it helps to hold your shoulders back in a very relaxed manner. This has helped with my back pain quite a bit. One word of warning though, go slowly with it, I made mine too tight at first and it pulled a lot on my chest muscles that were not that used to having my shoulders back that far and it hurt pretty bad for a day or two. That has subsided now, and I find that wearing this device very helpful now. Everyone is different though, so your mileage my very.

st/lah
gassho
brett

[Anthony]

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and the great responses. You all have really helped me in my practice today! Posture is not the most important thing when it comes to zazen, and being attached to it to the point of stress is counter-productive.

What I liked so much in “Opening the Hand of Thought” is Uchiyama-roshi’s advice to wake up and “return to your posture” when your mind wanders. Without good posture, I wasn’t sure what to return to during zazen. Jundo’s suggestion to return to the breath or to return to open awareness was particularly helpful for me.

I have similar issues with my back muscles! Sitting seiza, with an extra tall zafu (I got mine from DharmaCrafts) was a game changer. I went from shoulder blades burning after 10 or 15 minutes to getting through a Rohatsu retreat with very little back pain (knees were another story! )

Chikyō, you are on to something here! I elevated my zafu a bit by placing it on top of a pillow and it did wonders!

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

Gassho, Anthony satlah