On Zen Training in Community

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  • Matt Johnson
    Member
    • Jun 2024
    • 468

    On Zen Training in Community

    On Zen Training in Community

    I have often wondered why I never managed to stick with one group or teacher or sect of Zen. I have often beaten myself up on this issue, thinking that perhaps I'm a bad student who lacks persistence and focus, or that I have some form of spiritual ADHD. However, I'm starting to appreciate it a little more.

    In my time practicing Zen I have had the privilege of studying at 5 wonderful places which offer “Zen Training'' and in my honest assessment they are all teaching the true Dharma (I've also practised in other non-zen traditions but I'm leaving them out of this essay).

    Having practiced in multiple places has given me a way to compare, contrast and study what was common amongst them and what was unique to them. It's also given me the ability to grok what formed the core of training from what was extra or added.

    So what IS Zen training? Here is a list of things that I believe it encompasses:

    Zazen/Kinhin (Seated/walking Meditation)
    Sesshin/Zazenkai (Intensive Retreats)
    Samu (Work Practice)
    Teacher-Student Relationship
    Chanting and Rituals
    Study of Sutras and Texts
    Observance of Precepts
    Communal Living

    Today I would like to focus on Communal Living as it is there that I find the most misunderstanding and friction. I also believe that this issue is of particular importance to Treeleaf as it needs to be very intentionally reproduced (dare I say simulated) due to its disembodied and digital nature.

    Most of the places I practiced (which were all either open to westerners or were based in the West) had a soft form of hierarchy. It should be stated that this was much less hierarchical than is to be seen in Japanese training temples. However, hierarchy still exists and is usually related to length of time spent practising at a particular place.

    There was also an often unexpressed but implied sense that those who were higher in the hierarchy were higher in their practice/realisation and nowhere was this more evident than the deference and respect given to senior practitioners and even more so to teachers. (I must admit, I do appreciate this grain of salt thing as long as those using the expression agree with its use)

    Also, at many of the places I practiced there was an inner sanctum of sorts, often composed of senior monastics/priests or senior lay students who were in some cases were overtly referred to as “training” staff.

    The role of training staff has often been a mystery to me. These are the people who decide on the schedule, who does what work, who works with who, what programs will be run, what chants will be chanted etc. There is also an unspoken assumption that these regular activities are also opportunities for “training”. For example, if someone is doing something wrong, it is necessary to correct them. If someone gets too comfortable or identifies too closely to a particular position, it may be necessary to move them to a different position. If someone is sick it may be necessary to give them time off. If there are conflicts that threaten the Sangha’s harmony they need to be resolved. An often used metaphor in Zen training is we are all like rough stones, rubbing and bumping up against each other, polishing each other until we shine.

    This is all wonderful. But it seems a trifle artificial to me at times and nowhere is this more obvious than in a digital environment. Usually in Zen monasteries the day-to-day necessities of life caused the necessity of training. However, in a digital format it would seem that this needs to be “manufactured” or simulated probably because the sense of practising in community is perceived as being an important part of Zen training overall. But there is this underlying sense that people are trying to better you by controlling you. (my experience only perhaps and likely a distortion caused by my own programming) Some excuse this teaching method by suggesting this is occurring to teach people to break free from this passive victim situation which is nice except that means someone has judged your practice and found it wanting.

    In some of the places I practised Zen training appeared to be a natural byproduct of living physically in community which brought with it it's ups and downs, petty rivalries and jealousies. People correcting each other and pointing fingers for breaking the rules. People deliberately breaking the rules to show how iconoclastic they were. People who measured the power of their and others practise by the people they could bully into doing what they wanted. And then there were even people who were just pretending to do these things because they thought it was funny. It often lead to a sense of being “messed with” and sometimes teachers were the worst offenders. However, I suppose sincere intention to help must count for something.

    In any event, the fact is that most of us live outside of the formally defined Sangha. We already have this type of training in spades and so I openly question it's necessity (especially in its more contrived forms) especially as Zen evolves and sheds its monastic roots and even it's physical roots.

    Sometimes I feel that Zen training is unnecessary and parallels the same issue in our zazen. If we are all already intrinsically enlightened, what need is there for practise?

    _/\_

    sat/ah

    Matt
    Last edited by Matt Johnson; 08-03-2024, 11:50 AM.
  • Bion
    Senior Priest-in-Training
    • Aug 2020
    • 4784

    #2
    Hi, Matt. Here's my two cents on your ideas there, and take these as my own thoughts, not anything official. Remember... grain of salt

    I think you speak of Zen training as monastic training, which is not unusual, since most of what Zen practice is in the western world really is an attempt at emulating monastic training. Monastic training has always been organized, regimented, and pretty strict.. Begin with the Vinaya, moving to Baizhang's Monastic Rules, Master Dogen's Shingi, Master Keizan's etc In the Eihei Shingi, for example, there are clear instructions given on how to appoint people into certain positions, how to deem them qualified or unqualified, the reasons for scolding someone, the way to address the seniors, the reverence expected towards the abbot, how to wake up, how to act when going to the bathroom, how to approach another monk, how to sit zazen and to get up from sitting, how to arrange the clothes when moving or standing etc
    The idea behind hierarchy, at least in my understanding, is that a senior practitioner can better care for and support someone else's practice, precisely because of experience coming from diligent practice. The job of a senior is to set an example and lead by it, while the job of a junior is to show respect to those caring for them and teaching them. I know many places have seniors that behave like bosses, not servants an d helpers, but that is a different story. Experience is important in many many areas of Zen practice, which is why we teach by example mostly and a teacher always needs to be validated by another teacher, to make sure they are true and they faithfully represent the lineage and the dharma.

    You say " it seems a trifle artificial to me at times and nowhere is this more obvious than in a digital environment. Usually in Zen monasteries the day-to-day necessities of life caused the necessity of training. However, in a digital format it would seem that this needs to be “manufactured” or simulated probably because the sense of practising in community is perceived as being an important part of Zen training overall." In the digital environment needs arise as well, and they might be different than in a physical space, but it's still something that happens. Making zazenkai happen, for example, takes work, someone needs to be appointed to serve as ino, someone else might have to care for the recording and streaming of the event, playing audios or videos during the meetings, sharing texts or documents, moderating the room, keeping time etc And those folks need backups, and sometimes training to perform certain tasks, and thus they need folks to train them. Schedules mean calendars, calendars need to be maintained and updated, commitments need to be made and things organized. Other tasks such as hosting a daily sit, like some of our members do, hosting a tea house, managing social media accounts, making podcasts, curating content, take commitment and discipline. Performing these tasks as a body of practitioners comes with its own set of challenges, that require attention continuously. The priest training is also a separate layer. And so, I wouldn't say we manufacture training needs or roles in the sangha. I'd say we respond to real needs, to maintain this VERY real sangha, that is much more than the forum you and I are posting on. The forum could vanish tomorrow, but that doesn't mean the sangha would.

    Sorry for running long and not going into too many details. I hope I understood well what you said and responded accordingly. Apologies again if I mislead anyone with my words!

    Gassho
    sat and lah
    "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

    Comment

    • Matt Johnson
      Member
      • Jun 2024
      • 468

      #3
      "Here's my two cents on your ideas there, and take these as my own thoughts, not anything official. Remember... grain of salt”

      How could I take them any other way.

      “I think you speak of Zen training as monastic training, which is not unusual, since most of what Zen practice is in the western world really is an attempt at emulating monastic training.”

      Well no, I use that as an umbrella term to encompass what occurs in Japanese Zen monasteries, Western Zen monasteries and Zen centres.

      “Monastic training has always been organized, regimented, and pretty strict.. “

      That strictness was directly related to the understanding of the monks of the day.

      "The job of a senior is to set an example and lead by it, while the job of a junior is to show respect to those caring for them and teaching them. I know many places have seniors that behave like bosses, not servants and helpers, but that is a different story. Experience is important in many many areas of Zen practice, which is why we teach by example mostly and a teacher always needs to be validated by another teacher, to make sure they are true and they faithfully represent the lineage and the dharma.”

      Yes and I suppose if it is ones desire to faithfully “represent” the lineage and the dharma then one will act accordingly. Much the same way we have to be nice to the boss because we don't want to be broke and homeless.

      "In the digital environment needs arise as well, and they might be different than in a physical space, but it's still something that happens. Making zazenkai happen, for example, takes work, someone needs to be appointed to serve as ino, someone else might have to care for the recording and streaming of the event, playing audios or videos during the meetings, sharing texts or documents, moderating the room, keeping time etc And those folks need backups, and sometimes training to perform certain tasks, and thus they need folks to train them. "

      Sure but it could also be simplified and just say everyone meet on zoom at this time for 4 hours and do zazen. Nothing is standing in the way of that in… all other things being equal.

      “The priest training is also a separate layer. And so, I wouldn't say we manufacture training needs or roles in the sangha."

      Ah so we are all equal but some are more equal than others, sort of thing. Doesn't sound very transparent and welcoming if there are things going on behind the scenes.

      “I'd say we respond to real needs, to maintain this VERY real sangha, that is much more than the forum you and I are posting on. The forum could vanish tomorrow, but that doesn't mean the sangha would.”

      You have an interesting concept of a Sangha. How could could it vanish? It never existed.

      _/\_

      sat/ah

      Matt
      Last edited by Matt Johnson; 08-02-2024, 07:58 PM.

      Comment

      • Bion
        Senior Priest-in-Training
        • Aug 2020
        • 4784

        #4
        Originally posted by Matt Johnson

        Well no, I use that as an umbrella term to encompass what occurs in Japanese Zen monasteries, Western Zen monasteries and Zen centres.

        That strictness was directly related to the understanding of the monks of the day.

        Yes and I suppose if it is ones desire to faithfully “represent” the lineage and the dharma then one will act accordingly. Much the same way we have to be nice to the boss because we don't want to be broke and homeless.

        Sure but it could also be simplified and just say everyone meet on zoom at this time for 4 hours and do zazen. Nothing is standing in the way of that in… all other things being equal.


        Ah so we are all equal but some are more equal than others, sort of thing. Doesn't sound very transparent and welcoming if there are things going on behind the scenes.


        You have an interesting concept of a Sangha. How could could it vanish? It never existed.


        Matt
        I must confess I don't quite understand your point. Are you saying you think monastic training is useless? Are you saying you think lay practitioners should not be engaged in any of those activities? Sorry if I sound confused, but you sort of broke down my reply into points to dispute and I can't figure out what you're trying to say.

        Gassho
        sat and lah
        "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

        Comment

        • Bion
          Senior Priest-in-Training
          • Aug 2020
          • 4784

          #5
          PS: Matt, I've moved your post to the Topics about Zen Practice section of the forum

          Gassho
          "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

          Comment

          • Matt Johnson
            Member
            • Jun 2024
            • 468

            #6
            Originally posted by Bion
            PS: Matt, I've moved your post to the Topics about Zen Practice section of the forum

            Gassho
            Sorry Bion this essay may have been in poor taste. I admit to feeling triggered by the realization that not everything that was going on in the forums was visible. I have had some bad experiences with various Sanghas and I am hypersensitive to cliques and elitism of any sort.
            ​​
            If there is a training program that is a different "layer" of the onion (where the possibility of discussing in private the practice of others exists), I want nothing to do with it as much as I wish to belong somewhere. If thats the path forward in this Sangha I am going to have to seriously think about how far I want to go. It just leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. We're either all equal here, having access to the same information or its just another exclusive club.

            From my point of view, the Sangha is most definitely not limited to any Buddhist group in particular or Buddhism at all... The whole world is our Sangha. Why do we need a training program for what we all already have access to?

            _/\_

            sar/ah

            Matt
            ​​​​​​
            Last edited by Matt Johnson; 08-03-2024, 01:52 AM.

            Comment

            • Bion
              Senior Priest-in-Training
              • Aug 2020
              • 4784

              #7
              Originally posted by Matt Johnson

              Sorry Bion this essay may have been in poor taste. I admit to feeling triggered by the realization that not everything that was going on in the forums was visible. I have had some bad experiences with various Sanghas and I am hypersensitive to cliques and elitism of any sort.

              If there is a training program that is a different "layer" of the onion (where the possibility of discussing in private the practice of others exists), I want nothing to do with it as much as I wish to belong somewhere. If thats the path forward in this Sangha I am going to have to seriously think about how far I want to go. It just leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. We're either all equal here, having access to the same information or its just another exclusive club.

              From my point of view, the Sangha is most definitely not limited to any Buddhist group in particular or Buddhism at all... The whole world is our Sangha. Why do we need a training program for what we all already have access to?

              _/\_

              sar/ah

              Matt
              ​​​​​​
              Hi, Matt! First of all, thanks for your presence and practice at today´s Zazenkai!
              I don´t think your post was in poor taste. You simply expressed your thoughts and feelings about a very specific thing. I understand your issues with some aspects of formal zen training. You clearly see at Treeleaf we are pretty informal. The thing about priest training in particular is not that it is done in any secrecy, or that it is about cliques or elitism. There are simply skills that a priest needs to learn and embody in order to be the vessel to carry forward our Way, which then are on display either way for the sangha, but that are not necessarily of interest or needed for everyone. If you went to any training monastery, you wouldn´t see the entire sangha being expected to keep up with the schedule and responsibilities of training unsui. It is just that.
              I am sure Jundo will come say more reassuring and clarifying words. Rest assured, we are all equals here. As a matter of fact, as unsui, our duty is to serve and support, not to be sitting on some high chair.

              Gassho
              sat and lah
              "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

              Comment

              • Jundo
                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                • Apr 2006
                • 40665

                #8
                Hi,

                I just want to second most of what Bi says above. We have a certain style of practice in this Dojo (like a certain way of cooking in a restaurant kitchen, or a certain form of practice in a Karate Dojo), and some folks more experienced than others trying to help folks learn that art.

                As opposed to the typical Zen center in the west, most of which are not residential except for priest trainees, our members drop in and can communicate and practice together 24/7, unlike places where folks might gather maybe once or a few times a week for largely silent practice with less chance to communicate, study together, etc. So, our priests and other helpful senior members are pretty busy around here! And human relationships are as complicated around here as in any human group!

                We do have a "priest training" area that is not open to anyone except the priests ... but you ain't missing much. Why? Becoming a novice priest in training is a step DOWN, into a roll of service. They are not getting any "Zen secrets" that you'all don't know. Rather, they are doing such exciting things as learning to light incense without setting their sleeves on fire (I did that once ), learning something of our Zen history in greater detail (so that they can be helpful to people with questions), to manage our tiny budget, to receive training in ethics and responsible pastoral care, to keep out the "hijackers" who started attacking our Zoom sittings this week, and stuff like that. It is about as exciting as going to driving school.


                But it is necessary because someone needs to keeps this place going, and on a good course, or else it will be as disorganized and silly as so many places in society where nobody cares what goes on.

                Gassho, Jundo
                stlah
                Last edited by Jundo; 08-05-2024, 11:33 PM.
                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                Comment

                • Matt Johnson
                  Member
                  • Jun 2024
                  • 468

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  Hi,

                  I just want to second most of what Bi says above. We have a certain style of practice in this Dojo (like a certain way of cooking in a restaurant kitchen, or a certain form of practice in a Karate Dojo), and some folks more experienced than others trying to help folks learn that art.

                  As opposed to the typical Zen center in the west, most of which are not residential except for priest trainees, our members drop in and can communicate and practice together 24/7, unlike places where folks might gather maybe once or a few times a week for largely silent practice with less chance to communicate, study together, etc. So, our priests and other helpful senior members are pretty busy around here! And human relationships are as complicated around here as in any human group!

                  We do have a "priest training" area that is not open to anyone except the priests ... but you ain't missing much. Why? Becoming a novice priest in training is a step DOWN, into a roll of service. They are not getting any "Zen secrets" that you'all don't know. Rather, they are doing such exciting things as learning to light incense without setting their sleeves on fire (I did that once ), learning something of our Zen history in greater detail (so that they can be helpful to people with questions), to manage our tiny budget, to receive training in ethics and responsible pastoral care, to keep out the "hijackers" who started attacking our Zoom sittings this week, and stuff like that. It is about as exciting as going to driving school.


                  But it is necessary because someone needs to keeps this place going, and on a good course, or else it will be as disorganized and silly as so many places in society, and only, where nobody cares what goes on.

                  Gassho, Jundo
                  stlah
                  All I can say is be patient with me navigating this online situation. Interacting here isa bit vague...like reaching behind one's head for a pillow at night or drinking a cool glass of water at night only to find out in the day it's a skull full of maggots and blood. (those are Zen sayings, not me being a jerk)

                  One of the most obvious things is the amount of people reading messages versus the amount of people I see on on a daily basis does not match. It seems awfully empty around here and there is definitely much that is going on below the surface. This can probably be explained away by people who have been granted access to read but choose not to comment (lurkers). Which is fine I guess most online forums have a similar situation.

                  But there is a general feeling that upon admission, people on this forum are essentially sandboxed until they have been "verified". Is there any truth to that?

                  Is there anything else anybody would like to tell me about interactions that are occurring that are not obvious or public on this forum?

                  _/\_

                  sat/ah

                  Matt

                  Comment

                  • Bion
                    Senior Priest-in-Training
                    • Aug 2020
                    • 4784

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Matt Johnson

                    All I can say is be patient with me navigating this online situation. Interacting here isa bit vague...like reaching behind one's head for a pillow at night or drinking a cool glass of water at night only to find out in the day it's a skull full of maggots and blood. (those are Zen sayings, not me being a jerk)

                    One of the most obvious things is the amount of people reading messages versus the amount of people I see on on a daily basis does not match. It seems awfully empty around here and there is definitely much that is going on below the surface. This can probably be explained away by people who have been granted access to read but choose not to comment (lurkers). Which is fine I guess most online forums have a similar situation.

                    But there is a general feeling that upon admission, people on this forum are essentially sandboxed until they have been "verified". Is there any truth to that?

                    Is there anything else anybody would like to tell me about interactions that are occurring that are not obvious or public on this forum?

                    _/\_

                    sat/ah

                    Matt
                    Hi, Matt! Nothing below the surface. Once admitted and logged in, it’s up to each person to make the most out of the place and what you see is what everyone else sees. Nothing more. Some months conversations just flourish and there’s loads of activity, other months everything is mostly quiet. Many folks have been here for years and at this point sit regularly with one of the scheduled sits, come to tea houses, join zazenkai, Ango, but have little input in written form. Many folks enjoy reading the essays from Jundo, or keep up with events and scheduled meetings, but did the bulk of their writing and discussing years ago. The interactions at Treeleaf take many forms, the forum being just one. But we have the scheduled sits, zazenkai, sewing practice, tea houses, folks that chat in private, many of us have extended our interactions to beyond the forum, texting, social media… You know, those things that organically happen when folks come to know and enjoy each other’s company.
                    But I think, mostly, many of our long time members simply have developed a routine of practicing together in the sitting rooms, and have figured out how to make whatever we have to offer as a sangha work for them.
                    What are you feeling is lacking for you? This is a genuine question..

                    Hope some of this helps ..

                    Gassho
                    sat and lah
                    Last edited by Bion; 08-05-2024, 11:18 PM.
                    "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40665

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Matt Johnson

                      Well, transparency and honesty and by that I also include lies of omission and other things folks should know.

                      I fully expect people have lives outside of this forum. Its just the numbers were not adding up... It felt a bit "truman show" there for a bit. It ok to have nothing to say... But it could be considered stingy as well. Do we are about the precepts number 8 and 6 in particular?

                      Just getting real for a moment.

                      _/\_

                      sat/ah

                      Matt
                      Hi Matt,

                      I am not sure what you are suspect about. Our forum software says this about activity today ...
                      That is about typical for most Zen Sangha I know. I like to tell the story of how I sat for about 10 years with the Sunday lay Zazen group at the huge Soto Head Temple, Sojiji, near Tokyo, which had about 30 to 50 members when I joined. I was the only foreigner for most of those years. Every week, about 5 to 10 new Japanese people would come and introduce themselves as new members. 10 years later, the group still hovered between 30 to 50 members. That is just typical in my experience with many Sangha. Most Zen Sangha I know, even San Francisco Zen Center which has been around for almost 70 years, seems to gather maybe 30 to 50 active members for their events. It is something in the nature of groups.

                      We do have hundreds of more members who drop in more sporadically, from each week to every once in awhile. Most people do not comment, wisely, unless they have something which really needs saying.

                      Gassho, J
                      stlah
                      Last edited by Jundo; 08-06-2024, 12:07 AM.
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Matt Johnson
                        Member
                        • Jun 2024
                        • 468

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mdonnoe
                        Hello Matt,

                        I hear your frustration and confusion, and understand that you've had painful past experiences that may give rise to feelings of caution and skepticism now. I also have had challenges in the past with in-person sanghas, and the memories of those experiences certainly have given rise to my own projections and reflexes of caution or fear now.

                        I have seen that there are a lot of "lurkers" here, quietly reading without posting or replying, and sometimes (particularly when I've posted something new, or replied to a comment in a vibrant thread), I've also heard crickets. It's frustrating for sure - but from my own personal (limited) experience, many times, I don't have anything to say (either in a new post or in a reply), and so I just read. I've contributed to the sometimes quiet space here by not being more active, and I would like to do better personally. The interactions I have had here on the forums and in the after-zazenkai "tea space" have been kind, thoughtful and welcoming, though. I've tried to reach out personally to people who I've seen or interacted with in sits or posted things that have resonated with me, and it's made sangha and friendship in a digital space for me. So, that's been my experience of "non public interactions" here - writing messages to others and connecting that way, and even following a few people on Instagram (which, I'm @mdonnoe77 there, if you're an Instagram person too).

                        I've been practicing a long time (more than half my life), in both "in person" spaces and this "digital" space. From what I've seen, "sangha is what you make it." I'm an introverted and somewhat shy guy in person, but online I can feel a little more "bold" to reach out to others, and I like it here a lot, so this is "communal living and sangha" for me. It took me a little time to get used to a digital space for what I'd only experienced "physically" previously (I'm reminded of Paul Simon's lyrics, "stroll around the grounds until you feel at home..."), and now I do feel at home here. I hope you will, too.

                        If I've missed the point of what you're saying, I really do apologize. Like everyone, I'm doing my best.

                        Gassho,

                        Michael
                        SatLah
                        Michael! A sincere thank you for reaching out! Yes Sangha IS what you make it! It was just feeling weird that I couldn't figure out how one was supposed to make it except by posting things.

                        I am unapologetically neurodiverse and I lack a filter (clearly)... I have and tendency to "infodump" and "overshare". That being said there is not much that I have written yet that I would retract. I suppose people have to get to know me somehow.

                        For someone on the Spectrum it may be less usual (though certainly not unheard of) that I have a keen interest in technology and I use and learn about it as much as I can.

                        However, pretty much all of my socialisation occurs in person (as the owner of a cafe) But to be perfectly honest that's mostly business rather than pleasure. I am not on any social media except YouTube if you count that (no, I don't broadcast anything).

                        So it's kind of bizarre being 44 years old and having had my first computer at 13 and never having actually belonged to any online community (I was on Facebook for a spell). So I guess it's a bit strange if you are not on any other social media and you decide to join an online Sangha there really is no other place to socialise online. I thought that's what I was doing in the forum was socialising... Silly me...lol

                        Anyway, it's nice to meet you!

                        _/\_

                        sat/ah

                        Matt

                        Comment

                        • Matt Johnson
                          Member
                          • Jun 2024
                          • 468

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jundo

                          Hi Matt,

                          I am not sure what you are suspect about. Our forum software says this about activity today ...
                          That is about typical for most Zen Sangha I know. I like to tell the story of how I sat for about 10 years with the Sunday lay Zazen group at the huge Soto Head Temple, Sojiji, near Tokyo, which had about 30 to 50 members when I joined. I was the only foreigner for most of those years. Every week, about 5 to 10 new Japanese people would come and introduce themselves as new members. 10 years later, the group still hovered between 30 to 50 members. That is just typical in my experience with many Sangha. Most Zen Sangha I know, even San Francisco Zen Center which has been around for almost 70 years, seems to gather maybe 30 to 50 active members for their events. It is something in the nature of groups.

                          We do have hundreds of more members who drop in more sporadically, from each week to every once in awhile. Most people do not comment, wisely, unless they have something which really needs saying.

                          Gassho, J
                          stlah
                          Lol... Sounds like just enough rope to hang myself in front of a large audience (which is probably why you give people that confidentiality post at the beginning)... I agree, my experience in many Zen Sanghas was almost always one of initial trepidation at least until we sat our first sesshin together... But I have been in places I just did the retreat and left... So yeah there is a getting to know you period...

                          I feel like you have had this conversation more than a few times. It just all leaves me a little less eager to participate.

                          ​​​​​What I see you and other senior members doing is trying your best to make this place welcoming and to say things that will prompt people to engage and respond, which at first seems like it would be damn near impossible in a tradition that prides itself in being beyond word and letters.

                          ​​​​

                          _/\_

                          ​​​​sat/ah

                          Matt

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40665

                            #14
                            ​​​What I see you and other senior members doing is trying your best to make this place welcoming and to say things that will prompt people to engage and respond, which at first seems like it would be damn near impossible in a tradition that prides itself in being beyond word and letters.
                            And that is why there are more books about Zen in the Buddhist book section than any other kind!

                            Monks and Zen folks socialize. When I was at Sojiji, "after hours," the young monks would be hanging in the dorm, playing cards. My old teacher, Azuma Roshi, was a big baseball fan and invited the other monks to watch the TV he kept in his room.

                            I just wrote this yesterday for a Buddhist magazine (LINK) from Malaysia ( !) that is doing a profile and interview with me this summer:

                            Q. You founded Treeleaf Zendo, a digital Zen community with members in over 50 countries. What is the difference between a digital Zen community and the normal Zen community?

                            When we first started our online community in 2006, we were, I believe, the only such community at the time, and for many years to come. Now, of course, online practice is much more common. From the start, our Sangha catered to those who could not travel easily to a place of practice, sometimes because of health and disability restrictions, their location in a town without a Buddhist group near, or simply because busy parents and hard-working people are not free. Such folks could come to sit and practice with us from wherever they are, at any time.

                            Now, there are some things we miss online: The experience of being in the same physical room, the warmth of presence. This is true. But on the other hand, we found a real power in being a digital community, and some unique strengths to it. For one, we tell our members to “drop from mind all thought of distance, here vs. there, now vs. then,” and that much separation is a measure made between their own ears. Mahayana Buddhism emphasizing that the whole universe pours into each grain of sand, the entire ocean into every drop, that each place and moment is every other place and moment too. So, people are present and together when we feel present and together.

                            Also, the average lay Buddhist practitioner, especially in western Zen groups, might come to a “brick and cement” Zen center for a few hours a week at best, sit Zazen silently, have some brief socializing or learning experience, then head home. In contrast, our Treeleaf Sangha people can communicate each day, partake in a variety of Zazen sittings, studies of Zen and Buddhist doctrines, practice groups and the like. As well, we have even found that the distance of the group, and ability to communicate in careful writing, has led our members to open up, truly talk in heartfelt ways, to share deeply. I have had folks tell me that they felt comfortable to shares their personal struggles with our Sangha in ways that they were embarrassed to discuss with their “in person” Zen community, or even sometimes with their spouse and closest friends. From the beginning, our Treeleaf Sangha has sought to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion on Buddhist teachings, interaction with a teacher, Precept study and ceremonies, even poetry and Buddhist robe sewing groups, and all other activities typical of a Soto Zen Buddhist Sangha. I think we have done a good job.

                            Gassho, J
                            stlah
                            Last edited by Jundo; 08-06-2024, 12:53 AM.
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                            • Matt Johnson
                              Member
                              • Jun 2024
                              • 468

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jundo

                              And that is why there are more books about Zen in the Buddhist book section than any other kind!

                              Monks and Zen folks socialize. When I was at Sojiji, "after hours," the young monks would be hanging in the dorm, playing cards. My old teacher, Azuma Roshi, was a big baseball fan and invited the other monks to watch the TV he kept in his room.

                              Gassho, J
                              stlah
                              I not a complete square lol... I was the one smoking outside the kitchen of ZMM when Daido would come walking by. I snuck out of a few Japanese temples to go have a beer down the road with residents. (pretty sure I caught a teacher or 2 doing the same)... It's just that I was one of these people who made a decision to not socialise online as I have no social media... My Sangha most readily appears to be my family. My Cafe. My community. The schools that I substitute teach at. But It almost feels like to get full engagement at Treeleaf and to make friends online I have to make some sort of a shift... or maybe not, I don't know.....still feeling it out....

                              _/\_

                              sat/ah

                              Matt

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