On Zen Training in Community

[Matt Johnson]

And that is why there are more books about Zen in the Buddhist book section than any other kind!

Monks and Zen folks socialize. When I was at Sojiji, "after hours," the young monks would be hanging in the dorm, playing cards. My old teacher, Azuma Roshi, was a big baseball fan and invited the other monks to watch the TV he kept in his room.

Gassho, J
stlah

I not a complete square lol... I was the one smoking outside the kitchen of ZMM when Daido would come walking by. I snuck out of a few Japanese temples to go have a beer down the road with residents. (pretty sure I caught a teacher or 2 doing the same)... It's just that I was one of these people who made a decision to not socialise online as I have no social media... My Sangha most readily appears to be my family. My Cafe. My community. The schools that I substitute teach at. But It almost feels like to get full engagement at Treeleaf and to make friends online I have to make some sort of a shift... or maybe not, I don't know.....still feeling it out....

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

[Jundo]

I not a complete square lol... I was the one smoking outside the kitchen of ZMM when Daido would come walking by. I snuck out of a few Japanese temples to go have a beer down the road with residents. (pretty sure I caught a teacher or 2 doing the same)... It's just that I was one of these people who made a decision to not socialise online as I have no social media... My Sangha most readily appears to be my family. My Cafe. My community. The schools that I substitute teach at. But It almost feels like to get full engagement at Treeleaf and to make friends online I have to make some sort of a shift... or maybe not, I don't know.....still feeling it out....

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

Hey, you are how you feel ... and much of that feeling is between your two ears. Up to you.

Our place is not a paradise, nor is it hell. It is a nice community where folks are welcome.

Gassho, Jundo
stkag

[Tairin]

I have seen that there are a lot of "lurkers" here, quietly reading without posting or replying, and sometimes (particularly when I've posted something new, or replied to a comment in a vibrant thread), I've also heard crickets. It's frustrating for sure - but from my own personal (limited) experience, many times, I don't have anything to say (either in a new post or in a reply), and so I just read. I've contributed to the sometimes quiet space here by not being more active, and I would like to do better personally.

I just wanted to chime in as one of the quieter members of the Sangha to say this. Not everyone is here for these types of discussions. Also sometimes (as Matt says) there is nothing specific to contribute. Speaking only for myself, I am here at Treeleaf mostly for the sitting, the teaching by Jundo and the other priests, and the directed readings (book club). I don’t think anyone should read anything more into this.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Matt Johnson]

I just wanted to chime in as one of the quieter members of the Sangha to say this. Not everyone is here for these types of discussions. Also sometimes (as Matt says) there is nothing specific to contribute. Speaking only for myself, I am here at Treeleaf mostly for the sitting, the teaching by Jundo and the other priests, and the directed readings (book club). I don’t think anyone should read anything more into this.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

I appreciate that Tairin, very generous of you. In my very short experience at Treeleaf, you are actually one of the more visible people. I suspect many people start off posting with zeal and then stop or pull back for some reason. Yet they continue to check in. Which I guess is nice, if a little disconcerting.

Oh well, I suppose if everyone was posting it would be equally as awkward. But it would seem to always lead in the direction of saying less until there was nothing but crickets... Which is not a bad sound mind you.

Likely see you in the book club.

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

[Alina]

Hello Matt

I've only been in Treeleaf for a year, so this is coming from a relatively new member.
Finding Treeleaf has meant a lot to me, since for work reasons I had to move away from the Dojo I started practicing when I learnt to sit zazen,
so I spent a long time practicing alone, and it was lonely, and I was starting to feel like it was hard to keep it up.
I participate in the forum, in the book club, in the insight timer group, and now in the In the Moment hang out on Wednesdays (the only time that fits into my schedule). Some weeks I post almost daily, other weeks I am more busy with work-kids-house-life and may not participate at all in the forum.

I've also had difficult experiences in previous sanghas, so I can relate to that part of your posts in this thread, but about how many and how much each member participates, I guess it depends in part on how much time they can spend here (at least that's my case).
And for the lurkers, they are everywhere online ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Gassho
Alina
stlah

[ZenJay]

Speaking just from the perspective of a new member, it can be a little intimidating at times going to post for me. Some of the folks here have been practicing together for years and seem like family so to speak, which is fantastic and encouraging, but as someone new coming in, I find for me it’s a little awkward trying to jump in or say something at times (especially with the lack of “official experience” that I have with practicing with a Sangha, hence why at times I stay quiet, read, learn…). I know this is just my own insecurities most likely and how my own mind is filtering the experience of being new in the Sangha, being kind of the outsider coming to the steps of the Monastery… etc. especially one that’s been around for a little bit, so I try to post when I do have something to say, but also recognize that I should listen and just sit. I say this to just point to the fact that some may just be at different comfort levels with posting, which can and will also change over time. The ocean tides come in… they go out…

I am very grateful for Treeleaf and that I found it when I did. Thank you everyone, sorry to run long.

Gassho,
Jay

Sat/Lah today

[Chikyou]

This is a really fascinating conversation! I'm one of the quieter ones, I think; I sit all the Zazenkai (almost always recorded due to my work schedule and time zone), participate in ango and Rohatsu, and other meet ups, groups and events sporadically. I'm often present and only occasionally talking.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[GloriaMeiseiko]

Dear Matt, I see in what you tell some of my experiences in various sanghas of all types of Buddhism.
After a time in a somewhat sectarian Tibetan school where meritocracy and the cult of the lama were rewarded (a bad place for a rebel like me), I entered several places always with distrust and at the slightest dislike of something, I would leave. Even so, Zen always went hand in hand with me, identifying myself as a Tibetan Buddhist and Zen, dzogchen and Zen, shingon and Zen... but the Zen places I visited in my country seemed to me serious, patriarchal and closed, so I made my personal Zen, in intimacy. In the end I declared myself an urban hermit (I live in a very small city).

I am telling you this because at 42 years old I think I am realizing that everything is beyond forms, beyond kimonos, beyond prostrations, beyond nun/monk labels...I don't know how to express it but I want to embrace that nonconformism that has given me headaches and use it to go hand in hand with zen, whatever that word means. Although surely after this comment I will return to my problems of attention, labels and forms and ¨this is how it is¨.

I don't know why I am commenting all this, maybe to avoid studying for a future exam that I have soon.

But well, just know that you are not alone here. Best regards.
(Sorry for my English, I use a translator )

Sat/Lah

[Matt Johnson]

Hello Matt

I've only been in Treeleaf for a year, so this is coming from a relatively new member.
Finding Treeleaf has meant a lot to me, since for work reasons I had to move away from the Dojo I started practicing when I learnt to sit zazen,
so I spent a long time practicing alone, and it was lonely, and I was starting to feel like it was hard to keep it up.
I participate in the forum, in the book club, in the insight timer group, and now in the In the Moment hang out on Wednesdays (the only time that fits into my schedule). Some weeks I post almost daily, other weeks I am more busy with work-kids-house-life and may not participate at all in the forum.

I've also had difficult experiences in previous sanghas, so I can relate to that part of your posts in this thread, but about how many and how much each member participates, I guess it depends in part on how much time they can spend here (at least that's my case).
And for the lurkers, they are everywhere online ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Gassho
Alina
stlah

Thanks for that Alina! I have been appreciating your contributions in the Health Dharma thread.

This place as an antidote to the feeling of sitting alone is absolutely spot on!

I had spent time with a few Sanghas and I have also sat lots on my own. But it is an open question for me whether we can be truely "alone" when sitting. Nothing tests that for me here like people who sit asynchronously (which if im not mistaken was all the tech allowed at Treeleaf's inception.

Anyway I really enjoy your frank, to-the-point posts. Are you thinking about Jukai (or perhaps you have done so already?)

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

[Matt Johnson]

Speaking just from the perspective of a new member, it can be a little intimidating at times going to post for me. Some of the folks here have been practicing together for years and seem like family so to speak, which is fantastic and encouraging, but as someone new coming in, I find for me it’s a little awkward trying to jump in or say something at times (especially with the lack of “official experience” that I have with practicing with a Sangha, hence why at times I stay quiet, read, learn…). I know this is just my own insecurities most likely and how my own mind is filtering the experience of being new in the Sangha, being kind of the outsider coming to the steps of the Monastery… etc. especially one that’s been around for a little bit, so I try to post when I do have something to say, but also recognize that I should listen and just sit. I say this to just point to the fact that some may just be at different comfort levels with posting, which can and will also change over time. The ocean tides come in… they go out…

I am very grateful for Treeleaf and that I found it when I did. Thank you everyone, sorry to run long.

Gassho,
Jay

Sat/Lah today

Hi Jay, I feel I can be somewhat to blame for some of the recent zen vomit... If you have been practising a while your intimacy with certain expressions and ways of thinking (or not thinking) can get a bit much (I refer to this as the "stink" of zen) which is why I love people who are newer to the path. It allows me to realize that all paths are relative, equal, self contained, complete, perfect and lacking nothing.

If you live 20 years or 100 years there is a sense that those lives were as complete as they could be. There is no "getting ahead, or behind". I consider myself to have been practising seriously for 24 years and am only now in a position to take Jukai (precepts). Some people pass all three major books of koans in a few years and some struggle on one for their whole life. Its all relative... That being said, just because we have experience doesn't mean we have to pretend we don't... You can only speak from your personal experience. If you tell me you have seen a ghost I may or may not believe you, but what does it matter what I think?

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

[Matt Johnson]

This is a really fascinating conversation! I'm one of the quieter ones, I think; I sit all the Zazenkai (almost always recorded due to my work schedule and time zone), participate in ango and Rohatsu, and other meet ups, groups and events sporadically. I'm often present and only occasionally talking.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

Heres the thing Chikyou I don't think you are one of the quieter ones. I have seen your posts in passing, but when I see 200 people read a recent thread and maybe 8 people comment it felt a bit weird... Have you been practicing with Treeleaf for long? Was there a time you posted more? Did you ever make a decision to post less? What lead to such a decision. Im just curious. Its really nice to meet you!btw.

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

[Matt Johnson]

Dear Matt, I see in what you tell some of my experiences in various sanghas of all types of Buddhism.
After a time in a somewhat sectarian Tibetan school where meritocracy and the cult of the lama were rewarded (a bad place for a rebel like me), I entered several places always with distrust and at the slightest dislike of something, I would leave. Even so, Zen always went hand in hand with me, identifying myself as a Tibetan Buddhist and Zen, dzogchen and Zen, shingon and Zen... but the Zen places I visited in my country seemed to me serious, patriarchal and closed, so I made my personal Zen, in intimacy. In the end I declared myself an urban hermit (I live in a very small city).

I am telling you this because at 42 years old I think I am realizing that everything is beyond forms, beyond kimonos, beyond prostrations, beyond nun/monk labels...I don't know how to express it but I want to embrace that nonconformism that has given me headaches and use it to go hand in hand with zen, whatever that word means. Although surely after this comment I will return to my problems of attention, labels and forms and ¨this is how it is¨.

I don't know why I am commenting all this, maybe to avoid studying for a future exam that I have soon.

But well, just know that you are not alone here. Best regards.
(Sorry for my English, I use a translator )

Sat/Lah

Hey Gloria! Nice to meet you! I think we see eye to eye on many things. I live in an area where Buddhism will probably never survive in its present form. However, I hold the belief that if one is sincere in ones practice and has no need of any external validation or empowerments then a Buddha field is present regardless.

It reminds me of a path that we dont hear about too often. That of the Engaku (円覚)Dokukaku (独覚)Otherwise known as a Pratyekabuddha. This term has often been used derisively but I feel very good about it. To call someone a mere Pratyeakbuddha is like trying to insult someone who is basically a hermit Buddha who doesn't want to (or cannot effectively) teach and doesn't care about having or belonging to a lineage. Its a totally legit path and a good chunk of zen was spread by monks who were for long periods effectively engaku. Not all of us want to teach and that shouldnt make our experience any less valuable and to be honest I think this path really resonates with me because it is free from all that goal seeking and seeking validation and comparing that occurs in many Sanghas. But you have to be pretty stong in your practice to make it work.

BTW I have also practised a bit in the Kagyu lineage they are kind of the Buddhist Mafia round here .

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

[Jundo]

Some people pass all three major books of koans in a few years and some struggle on one for their whole life.

In an instant of Just Sitting, all the major and minor books of Koans are passed all at once.

We just need to realize so.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Chikyou]

Heres the thing Chikyou I don't think you are one of the quieter ones. I have seen your posts in passing, but when I see 200 people read a recent thread and maybe 8 people comment it felt a bit weird... Have you been practicing with Treeleaf for long? Was there a time you posted more? Did you ever make a decision to post less? What lead to such a decision. Im just curious. Its really nice to meet you!btw.

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt

Hey Matt,

I've been here a couple of years, maybe approaching three? I took Jukai last year. Treeleaf was my first real encounter with zen and so I kinda grew up here.

I may have posted more when I first joined. One thing I learned pretty quickly is that there is great value in listening more than one speaks.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Matt Johnson]

Hey Matt,

I've been here a couple of years, maybe approaching three? I took Jukai last year. Treeleaf was my first real encounter with zen and so I kinda grew up here.

I may have posted more when I first joined. One thing I learned pretty quickly is that there is great value in listening more than one speaks.

Thats why we have two ears and one mouth I guess.

I was just curious if some people started off posting more and then started posting less. And what was the thought process that led to that. If sitting together in zoom is our Zazen, then The forum is like the rest of the monastery where we bump into each other and talk... What do you think?

_/\_

sat/ah

Matt