[FutureBuddha (16)] Not A Perfect 'Pure Land,' But A Peaceful, Good Land

[Tokan]

Famous Beatles lyric...

All you need is zazen, da-da-da-da-da,
All you need is zazen, da-da-da-da-da,
but if other technologies come along to augment human reality,
you still need zazen.


Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[Erin]

If there were treatments that made people feel good ... incredibly good about themselves ... but were also healthy and beneficial to the person, we could have our cake and eat it too. People would choose such pills and treatments because it makes em feel jolly, peaceful, happy, content

Honestly - this sounds horrifying.

Might we develop such kinds of tempting and addictive substances.

You are openly advocating creating a world of addicts? But it's okay because it won't give you lung cancer or accidental overdoses?

And I think you overestimate the desire for pleasure over the desire to stay true to yourself. Remember, the people you think need to be changed, they fundamentally don't want to change. They really really really like who they are and think that caring and wokeness are the devil.

Duhkha is still going to exist. Even if people can take some sort of bliss pills, old age, sickness, and death will still exist. Scarcity and hunger and insecurity will still exist. That isn't genetic, and genetic tinkering isn't going to make suffering go away.

Perhaps, because even billionaires and dictators are motivated by sex, pleasure and their quest to be healthy, many of them will indulge in "empathy pills" too because it makes them feel good....

Billionaires and dictators like being billionaires and dictators, and can buy (or demand, for the dictators) what ever pleasures strike their fancy. You couldn't make a pill that feels good enough to convince them to give up their power and wealth for some tingles down the spine.

There are only two areas where I might see as less than fully voluntary:

(1) Offering violent prisoners, such as rapists, child abusers, criminal addicts and murderers, the option to choose ... after their trial and conviction, just as now ... upon presenting them with information, seeking informed consent, and with a right to refuse ... the option to replace or reduce their prison time in exchange for medical or pharmacological procedures and treatments which would reduce or eliminate their drives to do violence in anger, sexual attractions toward children, addictions and the like.

Your belief that our criminal justice system is actually fair, as a basis for this particular argument, well, it just blows my mind. But I'm speaking as an American here, and our justice system and policing system is systemically racist and classist. Minority and poor populations are overpoliced, overcharged, underrepresented, and oversentenced. The wealthiest offenders can often buy their way out.

Your proposal assumes that violent criminals are always driven to do violence out of genetics rather than circumstances. Certainly there are people who are genuinely mentally ill who might be fixable by this hypothetical future tech, but many people do commit violent criminal acts that are situational rather than out of some predisposition for violence. You're not going to "fix" them with gene therapy.

Have you considered that some folks might feel they can commit a violent act with impunity because they can take your implant afterwards and get out of prison? It's like a get out of jail free card.

Offering reduced prison time in exchange for allowing the state to alter a prisoner's body is extremely coercive. It sounds like the American Eugenics movement. It does not sound Buddhist.

(2) In a war situation, we now drop bombs on enemies without the enemy's consent, and we sometimes kills innocent civilians without the civilians consent. The Ukranians are not consenting now to have the Russians attack them, of course. Thus, as an alternative to bullets and bombs that mame and kill, I would like to see weapons that simply render enemies incapable of fighting, perhaps by causing them to feel so peaceful, loving, magnanimous, empathetic toward others, that they turn from soldiers to saints, terrorists to lovers. Does it sound ridiculous?

It sounds like playing god. To assume you have the right, no matter how you try to justify it, to forcibly and fundamentally alter people - it sounds like playing god. It does not sound Buddhist.

...an army of one million people who felt tingles running up their spine to help others, to give and donate to others, charities and social programs would be much enriched.

These people are already there. Already contributing and working and organizing. There have been for generations. The work is slow and detail oriented and unsexy, and largely ignored by the media. There's no one solution because the problems are incredibly complex and challenging. But those people are already there. And they are the ones making a difference and making the world a better place.

[Jundo]

You are openly advocating creating a world of addicts? But it's okay because it won't give you lung cancer or accidental overdoses?

Yes, tempting or addictive substances ... like we now have our folks addicted to sugar, mall shopping, new tennis shoes ... but, in this case, substances that actually leave people healthier in body and mind. I do not wish to see substances so addictive that people do harm (e.g., break into pharmacies) to steal the stuff, but I do mean tempting and pleasurable substances that leave people healthier in body and mind, more caring and empathetic toward the suffering of strangers, more content and happy in their lives.

And I think you overestimate the desire for pleasure over the desire to stay true to yourself. Remember, the people you think need to be changed, they fundamentally don't want to change. They really really really like who they are and think that caring and wokeness are the devil.

I think that a lot of violent, angry, selfish, bigoted people show every sign of NOT being happy with themself, thus they express this unhappiness in being violent, angry, selfish, bigoted people. If they felt happier, more loving, and more pleasure in themself, they would tend not to have any such ugliness to express.

Duhkha is still going to exist. Even if people can take some sort of bliss pills, old age, sickness, and death will still exist. Scarcity and hunger and insecurity will still exist. That isn't genetic, and genetic tinkering isn't going to make suffering go away.

Contentment is the answer to Dukkha, whether it happens on the Zazen cushion or from a pill. Scarcity and hunger and insecurity will be greatly reduced when their are greater armies of people who get intense pleasure from wishing to feed the hungry, help the poor and comfort the lonely, because of their increased empathy toward the suffering of others.

Billionaires and dictators like being billionaires and dictators, and can buy (or demand, for the dictators) what ever pleasures strike their fancy. You couldn't make a pill that feels good enough to convince them to give up their power and wealth for some tingles down the spine.

We could try. Frankly, many wealthy folks and dictators I know don't seem as happy and content as you might imagine. We had such a fellow as our last US president, and he does not seem so happy and content, except maybe on the golf course. Imagine Mr. Trump if he suddenly found something that made him happy, content, loving and empathetic toward others even just a bit more than he is ...

Your belief that our criminal justice system is actually fair, as a basis for this particular argument, well, it just blows my mind. But I'm speaking as an American here, and our justice system and policing system is systemically racist and classist. Minority and poor populations are overpoliced, overcharged, underrepresented, and oversentenced. The wealthiest offenders can often buy their way out.

Yes, we need to fix the system. That is one reason that we must give offenders an alternative to prison, so that good lives are not wasted rotting behind bars. Also, if violent crime is reduced, the entire judicial and law enforcement system will be less overrun (like here in Japan, where the police seem to spend most of their time checking for unregistered bicycles! ) With the system less flooded with offenders, we can simultaneously work to make it fairer.

Your proposal assumes that violent criminals are always driven to do violence out of genetics rather than circumstances. Certainly there are people who are genuinely mentally ill who might be fixable by this hypothetical future tech, but many people do commit violent criminal acts that are situational rather than out of some predisposition for violence. You're not going to "fix" them with gene therapy.

No, not gene therapy as the primary mechanism. I see instead, for example, devices which neutralize the attraction to children when it physiologically begins to arise in convicted child molesters, and implanted devices which tame excess anger when it is detected in the bodies of people with anger issues which have risen to the level of assault on others. We might also find ways to increase empathy in sociopathic personalities, to cure addictions for people who steal to support addictions or who have a history of drunk driving. Only some of that would be "genetic," and much of it would be pharmacological or, possibly, involve brain stimulations.

Have you considered that some folks might feel they can commit a violent act with impunity because they can take your implant afterwards and get out of prison? It's like a get out of jail free card.

That does not seem likely, and it would certainly not be a totally "get of of jail free" card. They might still do hard time for awhile.

Offering reduced prison time in exchange for allowing the state to alter a prisoner's body is extremely coercive. It sounds like the American Eugenics movement. It does not sound Buddhist.

Do you think locking people away in maximum security prisons for years or decades is somehow less "coercive," more humane and more Buddhist?

It sounds like playing god. To assume you have the right, no matter how you try to justify it, to forcibly and fundamentally alter people - it sounds like playing god. It does not sound Buddhist.

Except for the battlefield (as an alternative to blowing people up as we do now), I did not propose one thing that is not a matter of free choice by the recipient.

These people are already there. Already contributing and working and organizing. There have been for generations. The work is slow and detail oriented and unsexy, and largely ignored by the media. There's no one solution because the problems are incredibly complex and challenging. But those people are already there. And they are the ones making a difference and making the world a better place.

Good luck to them! Keep going! Let's all try, and see who solves these problems first ... or together.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Meian]

Honestly - this sounds horrifying.

You are openly advocating creating a world of addicts? But it's okay because it won't give you lung cancer or accidental overdoses?

And I think you overestimate the desire for pleasure over the desire to stay true to yourself. Remember, the people you think need to be changed, they fundamentally don't want to change. They really really really like who they are and think that caring and wokeness are the devil.

Duhkha is still going to exist. Even if people can take some sort of bliss pills, old age, sickness, and death will still exist. Scarcity and hunger and insecurity will still exist. That isn't genetic, and genetic tinkering isn't going to make suffering go away.

Billionaires and dictators like being billionaires and dictators, and can buy (or demand, for the dictators) what ever pleasures strike their fancy. You couldn't make a pill that feels good enough to convince them to give up their power and wealth for some tingles down the spine.

Your belief that our criminal justice system is actually fair, as a basis for this particular argument, well, it just blows my mind. But I'm speaking as an American here, and our justice system and policing system is systemically racist and classist. Minority and poor populations are overpoliced, overcharged, underrepresented, and oversentenced. The wealthiest offenders can often buy their way out.

Your proposal assumes that violent criminals are always driven to do violence out of genetics rather than circumstances. Certainly there are people who are genuinely mentally ill who might be fixable by this hypothetical future tech, but many people do commit violent criminal acts that are situational rather than out of some predisposition for violence. You're not going to "fix" them with gene therapy.

Have you considered that some folks might feel they can commit a violent act with impunity because they can take your implant afterwards and get out of prison? It's like a get out of jail free card.

Offering reduced prison time in exchange for allowing the state to alter a prisoner's body is extremely coercive. It sounds like the American Eugenics movement. It does not sound Buddhist.

It sounds like playing god. To assume you have the right, no matter how you try to justify it, to forcibly and fundamentally alter people - it sounds like playing god. It does not sound Buddhist.

These people are already there. Already contributing and working and organizing. There have been for generations. The work is slow and detail oriented and unsexy, and largely ignored by the media. There's no one solution because the problems are incredibly complex and challenging. But those people are already there. And they are the ones making a difference and making the world a better place.

Gassho2 stlh

[Shonin Risa Bear]

[bows in advance for length]

I have read what appears to be a thread on transhumanist Buddhism with interest, and am inclined to agree with concerns, not that I think having more tools to help out in this vale of sorrows is bad, just that there will be little opportunity to so use them in the presence of the ongoing full-court press of greed, anger and ignorance.

We could have said this of any "advance," for example, the cotton gin. While the cotton gin reduced the "need" for slavery it also accelerated mining, manufacturing and consumerism, with consequent degradation of livability for all species.

I came into sitting as a gesture toward backing away from that trend, as it is a cheap, portable way to clear one's head (and stay out of trouble). Each morning, a bowl, each evening, a bowl.

At the same time I am keenly aware that my participation in the discussion is enabled by an iMac. A hand-me-down, but it is indeed an iMac, linking me to Apple, a transhumanist enterprise accelerating mining, manufacturing, consumerism, and, potentially, involuntary servitude. I have not sorted this out.

Screen Shot 2023-03-05 at 10.34.08 PM.jpg

gassho
ds sat

[Onkai]

I think part of the value of this discussion is that the some of the technologies that are being developed are scary and it's part of our practice to face our fears. It's better to look at how these technologies can be used for good rather than shrink from our fears or ruminate on the harm they could do. The technologies are there or not there either way.

My mother has a blood cancer that is being treated with meds that alter her genes, so gene therapy is already somewhat developed.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat lah

[Bion]

I think part of the value of this discussion is that the some of the technologies that are being developed are scary and it's part of our practice to face our fears. It's better to look at how these technologies can be used for good rather than shrink from our fears or ruminate on the harm they could do. The technologies are there or not there either way.

My mother has a blood cancer that is being treated with meds that alter her genes, so gene therapy is already somewhat developed.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat lah

[emoji3526] [emoji1374]


[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jundo]

My mother has a blood cancer that is being treated with meds that alter her genes, so gene therapy is already somewhat developed.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat lah

Onkai,

First, let us dedicate all sitting and everything we do around here to mom.

Second, if it is not too private, can you say what the treatment or meds are called, so I might look into and maybe post a little something about the process by which they are supposed to work? Only if it is not an intrusion.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo, for the care and for your interest in the meds

The medicine she took for 17 years before it stopped working was Pegasus (interferon). It's an off label use of that drug, as it was originally to treat hepatitis c.The medicine that scares me is Jakafi (it also has a really long name). Jakafi has serious side-effects. Now she's taking both, as a study showed that when they are combined, they can cause a complete remission, even for people who had been resistant to Interferon, and less people had to stop because of side effects from Jakafi. Both medicines are "jak 2 inhibitors," referring to what they do to the genes.

Gassho,
Onkai

[Onkai]

My mother corrected me. Pegasus gets rid of red blood cells and Jakafi reduces inflammation. They work on the Jak 2 in the genes, but the don't prevent them from forming in new cells.

Gassho,
Onkai

[Shonin Risa Bear]

_/\_

gassho
ds sat

[Jundo]

Thank you, Jundo, for the care and for your interest in the meds

The medicine she took for 17 years before it stopped working was Pegasus (interferon). It's an off label use of that drug, as it was originally to treat hepatitis c.The medicine that scares me is Jakafi (it also has a really long name). Jakafi has serious side-effects. Now she's taking both, as a study showed that when they are combined, they can cause a complete remission, even for people who had been resistant to Interferon, and less people had to stop because of side effects from Jakafi. Both medicines are "jak 2 inhibitors," referring to what they do to the genes.

Gassho,
Onkai

Thank you for sharing, Onkai. Looking this up ... (I am not a doctor, so the following is of little worth), but I think that "Jak2 inhibitors" are not actually working to alter or inhibit the genes directly, but just to inhibit certain malfunctioning proteins that are created by those genes.

I just wanted to be careful to correct the statement, "My mother has a blood cancer that is being treated with meds that alter her genes."

However, they are still doing something wondrous to counteract a gene mutation which is harmful to mom ... and I am glad that mom is doing better. It does not matter how a medicine works to counteract the harm, just that it works.

JAK2 gene

A gene that makes a protein that sends signals in cells to promote cell growth and helps control the number of red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets that are made in the bone marrow. Mutated (changed) forms of the JAK gene have been found in some types of blood conditions, including polycythemia vera, essential thrombocythemia, and primary myelofibrosis. These changes may cause the body to make too many blood cells.

National Cancer Institute: https://www.cancer.gov/publications/.../def/jak2-gene

... Several groups described almost simultaneously a novel activating somatic point mutation in the gene encoding the cytoplasmic JAK2, characterized by the substitution of valine for phenylalanine at codon 617 (JAK2 V617F). In these reports, this mutation was identified in approximately 50% of patients with essential thrombocytosis (ET) and primary myelofibrosis (PMF), but in polycythemia vera (PV) it is present in over 90% of patients. ...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5176249/

Evidence suggests that proteins known as Janus kinases, or JAKs, are involved. JAK proteins send signals that affect the production of blood cells in the bone marrow (A). When JAKs send too many signals, they cause the body to make the wrong number of blood cells. This chain of events is called overactive JAK signaling (B). As a result of overactive signaling in MF, scar tissue can build up in the bone marrow, preventing it from making enough blood cells.

https://www.jakafi.com/myelofibrosis/mf-treatment

Ruxolitinib [Jakafi] is in a class of medications called kinase inhibitors. It works to treat myelofibrosis and PV by blocking the signals that cause cancer cells to multiply. This helps to stop the spread of cancer cells. It works to treat GVHD by blocking the signals of the cells that cause GVHD.

https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/med...cancer%20cells.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo. I wasn't clear exactly how the meds work. I'm still not sure I understand, but I'm not certain even the doctors know exactly.

Mom had a blood test yesterday, and her counts were normal, but she's still feeling the negative effects of the Pegasus. I don't think she realizes that she's still more active and vibrant than she was a few weeks ago.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat lah