[FutureBuddha (16)] Not A Perfect 'Pure Land,' But A Peaceful, Good Land

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 41204

    [FutureBuddha (16)] Not A Perfect 'Pure Land,' But A Peaceful, Good Land



    Dear Fellow Inhabitants of Jambudvipa **

    **
    (the continent of traditional Buddhist geography where humans live, blue in the image above, layered heavens rising over ... ),



    We may not turn turn this world into some perfect place, not soon (I think never). I am no utopian, offering visions of ideal heavens on earth, each and all of our societal and personal problems cured once and for all, not to return. In fact, I believe that life needs to remain wild, organic, unpredictable and sometimes harsh for life to be life. The rough and tumble world of "Saṃsāra," birth and death (with sickness, aging and other troubles in between), will always be quite saṃsāric.

    On the other hand, I do believe that just a few relatively minor "tweaks" in human nature would render Saṃsāra, if not an utopian ideal, then quite nice and better. Small changes in our worst human habits would resolve a slew of planetary problems that now plague us. Moderating the tendency among some small number of us to kill and maim because anger boils over to rage, increasing feelings of human empathy when witnessing the fears, physical and economic suffering of others (even distant others), lessening our insatiable desires to consume and hoard in excess (notice that 'in excess' is always the problem for the Buddhist) would reduce or eliminate a variety of harms tied to those tendencies, from violence in our families and city streets, to most war, to hunger and poverty, to excess consumption of resources, global warming and more.

    In the following I continue to ask, assuming that certain medical, genetic and other technological developments ...
    (1) are inevitable and coming anyway, cannot be halted, cannot be ignored;

    (2) have a high chance of being misused by bad actors unless we use them in beneficial ways;

    (3) can be shown to be effective and safe to use; and

    (4) can be introduced in an ethical way respectful of individual free choice, civil and human rights ...

    ... how should such technologies be best employed to heal some of what troubles this world??

    My book states:

    ~ ~ ~

    Someday this world may abound in Buddhas, all its sentient beings become perfectly liberated beings, flawless in all ways, whatever the means of their becoming so. Perhaps their Wisdom and Compassion was engendered and/or engineered to Enlightenment, by biology, bionics, or Bodhicitta and the Brahma Viharas, perhaps by some combination of nature, nurture, nirvana, nano-tech, and neuro-science …

    … But however that might happen, if it happens, that’s not bound to happen anytime soon.

    In the meantime, while aiming for the highest peak, we can achieve much good even when just part way up the mountain. Zen teaches that every step of the path is its own place of realization.

    I do not believe that we human beings need to be as flawless as an idealized, perfect Buddha in order to manifest a Buddha’s qualities throughout our lives: Being basically good and basically wise in basically most situations is already an ample touch of being basically Buddha. “Buddha” thus serves as a superlative example of good qualities and wisdom, even if we are only “Buddha-ish” much of the time, rather than Buddha-ideal all the time.

    Perfection may always remain an impossible ideal. However, it is a teaching in many corners of Buddhism, such as in Soto Zen Buddhism, the tradition in which I practice, that one need not be a perfect Buddha to manifest Buddha in life. We might say that, underneath the rough surface, we all are already Buddha (or have the potential to be). When we act well and gently, we bring the Buddha to life in our lives, and make the Buddha’s enlightenment shine. Unfortunately, when we do the opposite and act with ugliness, such as with hate or greed, we hide the Buddha. We sometimes say, for example, that when we act with generosity, using our hands to offer kindness or charity, our hands become a Buddha’s hands. It is the opposite if those hands grab with greed or fill with a weapon to use in anger.

    Thus, though short of being a perfect Buddha, but inspired by Buddha, we can make some important and lasting improvements to the human condition. One may say that any instant of acting like a Buddha would do is a perfect moment of doing well.

    If, in the the future, inspired by Buddha, we can manage three small tweaks to the negative aspects of how we feel, react, and thus behave in life, this world will be a much nicer place. Not perfect, but much nicer.

    On the other hand, should we fail to make these changes, we will witness the world’s hastening implosion by war, excess, selfishness, poverty, hunger and environmental collapse. We cannot continue on the courses we are on.

    Should the technology come in time, should we have the ability to use it, should it prove safe and effective, should it be ethical to use (all big "shoulds" which must each be the case) then perhaps we can achieve a reformation of human nature through a careful and judicious use of “genetically engineered” Buddhism and “socially engaged” Buddhism, emotional moderation by neuro-mediation, Bud-dha via Bud-DNA, Zentech and Gentech, enhanced wisdom through enhanced biology, compassion called forth in the cortex, Kannon in our chromosomes, Precepts by prescription, peace pills and love lozenges, a union of meditation, mechanization, moderation and medication. Yes, we must tread with extreme caution lest our good intentions backfire. Any measures should be tested and retested before employ. However, even surprisingly minor changes in human personality would have widespread, lasting effects consistent with Buddhist values, achieving positive social goals shared by humanitarians of many creeds concerned for our survival.

    What are the three negative aspects calling for adjustment?

    First is excess desire, “greed” in Buddhist teachings. Greed is not the same as all desire, for ordinary desire is manageable and a necessary facet of being human, responsible for everything from our willingness to get out of bed in the morning, plant the crops, breed and feed the babies, to humanity’s great artistic creations and our having landed on the moon. The Buddha did not teach that all desires are harmful. Only excess and unhealthy desires are a problem, resulting in true addictions to food, sex, money and a thousand other things. Excess attachment and clinging to our desired goals are also a source of personal frustration and human conflict, leading to incessant discontents when the state of circumstances in life is not how we desire. Greed leads to runaway consumerism, poisoned air and water, obesity, to exploitation of other sentient beings so that we may acquire what we desire, wars wherein one group demands or grabs what it wants rather than sharing equitably the riches of this world with others.

    Second, there is anger and violence, best tuned down or totally avoided. These also result from desire, when others fail to comply with our desires, to the point that we grow angry, wishing to punish or compel the others by force. It is not the small peeve or little irritation, but rage and revenge, a matter of extreme. Most people know how to live in society peacefully, avoiding degrees of fury which result in physical harm to others, such as assault and murder. Sadly, a minority do not. An angry thought is not an angry word, an angry word is not a raised fist or thrown bomb. Non-violence need not be passivity: There are times we may need violence in defense, or may feel called upon to engage in non-violent civil protest based on a sense of social outrage and injustice. However, we can avoid true anger even in acting then. It is a matter of scale, keeping the burning fires low, under control, but not out.

    The third human condition in need of reconditioning is divided thinking, often called “ignorance” in Buddhist talk, manifesting in a variety of harmful ways in our lives and world. Divided thinking causes us to have a sense of being somehow separate and alienated from other people, and from the situation and conditions of our lives, feeling often as if it is “me against the world” and “me against you,” never quite at home, experiencing conflict with outside conditions.

    In fact, we need divided thinking in countless varieties just to live and thrive as people, for in order to function as a person I must experience that the chair in which I sit is somehow separate from me, that the rain pouring on others’ heads does not directly make me wet, that filling your mouth with food does not fill my stomach. As with desire, the problem with divided thinking is really only a matter of excess, not the fact of categorizing, classifying, judging and distinguishing in itself, given that dividing and categorizing are the vital secret to our survival and success for millions of years, allowing us to work and compete both as individuals and as a species. A problem exists only when separation and friction, without wholeness, are the only way in which we encounter the world, or when viewpoints based on division and their accompanying tensions run to excess.

    On a daily basis, most of our judgements are practical and necessary, but sometimes they reflect a chronic, disproportionate, existential dissatisfaction that leaves us perpetually restless and rarely satiated. Some degree of self-interest, as well as self-concern with our own family, is how the marketplace functions. Nonetheless, excess self-concern can result in a world of haves and have-nots. Instead of excess self-ishness, it would be good for us each to develop a heart by which, in charity, we make sure that nobody in the world is left hungry or without shelter from the rain. In Buddhist teaching, we also come to realize the ultimate truth that rain on others’ heads does make all of us wet, that your face and mouth is truly my face and mouth in other guise, for we are all merely extensions and expressions of each other.

    Traditionally, in Buddhist speak, the above three tendencies of excess desire, anger/violence and divided thinking in ignorance, are known as the three poisons.


    (to be continued)

    Gassho, J

    stlah

    Last edited by Jundo; 03-05-2023, 05:00 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Jimbob

    #2
    Originally posted by Jundo


    Dear Fellow Inhabitants of Jambudvipa **

    **
    (the continent of traditional Buddhist geography where humans live, blue in the image above, layered heavens rising above ... ),



    We may not turn turn this world into some perfect place, not soon (I think never). I am no utopian, offering visions of ideal heavens on earth, each and all of our societal and personal problems cured once and for all, not to return. In fact, I believe that life needs to remain wild, organic, unpredictable and sometimes harsh for life to be life. The rough and tumble world of "Saṃsāra," birth and death (with sickness, aging and other troubles in between), will always be quite saṃsāric.

    On the other hand, I do believe that just a few relatively minor "tweaks" in human nature would render Saṃsāra, if not an utopian ideal, then quite nice and better. Small changes in our worst human habits would resolve a slew of planetary problems that now plague us. Moderating the tendency among some small number of us to kill and maim because anger boils over to rage, increasing feelings of human empathy toward the fears, physical and economic suffering of others (even distant others), lessening our insatiable desires to consume and hoard in excess (notice that 'in excess' is always the problem for the Buddhist) would reduce or eliminate a variety of harms tied to those tendencies, from violence in our families and city streets, to most war, to hunger and poverty, to excess consumption of resources, global warming and more.

    In the following I continue to ask, assuming that certain medical, genetic and other technological developments ...
    (1) are inevitable and coming anyway, cannot be halted, cannot be ignored;

    (2) have a high chance of being misused by bad actors unless we use them in beneficial ways;

    (3) can be shown to be effective and safe to use; and

    (4) can be introduced in an ethical way respectful of individual free choice, civil and human rights ...

    ... how should such technologies be best employed to heal some of what troubles this world??

    My book states:

    ~ ~ ~

    Someday, this world may abound in Buddhas, all its sentient beings become perfectly liberated beings, flawless in all ways, however they might eventually have become so, whether their Wisdom and Compassion was engendered and/or possibly engineered to Enlightenment, by biology, bionics, Bodhicitta and the Brahma Viharas, perhaps by some combination of nature, nurture, nirvana, nano-tech, and neuro-science …

    … but, however that might happen, that’s not bound to happen anytime soon.

    In the meantime, while aiming for the highest peak, we can achieve much good even if just part way up the mountain. Zen teaches that each step of the path is its own place of realization.

    I do not believe that we human beings need to be as flawless as an idealized, perfect Buddha in order to manifest a Buddha’s qualities throughout our lives: Being basically good and basically wise in basically most situations is already an ample touch of being basically Buddha. “Buddha” thus serves as a superlative example of good qualities and wisdom, even if we are only “Buddha-ish” much of the time, rather than Buddha-ideal all the time.

    Perfection may always remain an impossible ideal. However, it is a teaching in many corners of Buddhism, such as in Soto Zen Buddhism, the tradition in which I practice, that one need not be a perfect Buddha to manifest Buddha in life. We might say that, underneath the rough surface, we all are already Buddha (or have the potential to be). When we act well and gently, we bring the Buddha to life in our lives, and make the Buddha’s enlightenment shine. Unfortunately, when we do the opposite and act with ugliness, such as with hate or greed, we hide the Buddha. We sometimes say, for example, that when we act with generosity, using our hands to offer kindness or charity, our hands become a Buddha’s hands. It is the opposite if those hands grab with greed or fill with a weapon to use in anger.

    Thus, though short of being a perfect Buddha, but inspired by Buddha, we can make some important and lasting improvements to the human condition. One may say that any instant of acting like a Buddha would do is a perfect moment of doing well.

    If, in the the future, inspired by Buddha, we can manage three small tweaks to the negative aspects of how we feel, react, and thus behave in life, this world will be a much nicer place. Not perfect, but much nicer.

    On the other hand, should we fail to make these changes, we will witness the world’s hastening implosion by war, excess, selfishness, poverty, hunger and environmental collapse. We cannot continue on the courses we are on.

    Should the technology come in time, should we have the ability to use it, should it prove safe and effective, should it be ethical to use (all big "shoulds" which must each be the case) then perhaps we can achieve a reformation of human nature through a careful and judicious use of “genetically engineered” Buddhism and “socially engaged” Buddhism, emotional moderation by neuro-mediation, Bud-dha via Bud-DNA, Zentech and Gentech, enhanced wisdom through enhanced biology, compassion called forth in the cortex, Kannon in our chromosomes, Precepts by prescription, peace pills and love lozenges, a union of meditation, mechanization, moderation and medication. Yes, we must tread with extreme caution lest our good intentions backfire. Any measures should be tested and retested before employ. However, even surprisingly minor changes in human personality would have widespread, lasting effects consistent with Buddhist values, achieving positive social goals shared by humanitarians of many creeds concerned for our survival.

    What are the three negative aspects calling for adjustment?

    First is excess desire, “greed” in Buddhist teachings. Greed is not the same as all desire, for ordinary desire is manageable and a necessary facet of being human, responsible for everything from our willingness to get out of bed in the morning, plant the crops, breed and feed the babies, to humanity’s great artistic creations and our having landed on the moon. The Buddha did not teach that all desires are harmful. Only excess and unhealthy desires are a problem, resulting in true addictions to food, sex, money and a thousand other things. Excess attachment and clinging to our desired goals are also a source of personal frustration and human conflict, leading to incessant discontents when the state of circumstances in life is not how we desire. Greed leads to runaway consumerism, poisoned air and water, obesity, to exploitation of other sentient beings so that we may acquire what we desire, wars wherein one group demands or grabs what it wants rather than sharing equitably the riches of this world with others.

    Second, there is anger and violence, best tuned down or totally avoided. These also result from desire, when others fail to comply with our desires, to the point that we grow angry, wishing to punish or compel the others by force. It is not the small peeve or little irritation, but rage and revenge, a matter of extreme. Most people know how to live in society peacefully, avoiding degrees of fury which result in physical harm to others, such as assault and murder. Sadly, a minority do not. An angry thought is not an angry word, an angry word is not a raised fist or thrown bomb. Non-violence need not be passivity: There are times we may need violence in defense, or may feel called upon to engage in non-violent civil protest based on a sense of social outrage and injustice. However, we can avoid true anger even in acting then. It is a matter of scale, keeping the burning fires low, under control, but not out.

    The third human condition in need of reconditioning is divided thinking, often called “ignorance” in Buddhist talk, manifesting in a variety of harmful ways in our lives and world. Divided thinking causes us to have a sense of being somehow separate and alienated from other people, and from the situation and conditions of our lives, feeling often as if it is “me against the world” and “me against you,” never quite at home, experiencing conflict with outside conditions.

    In fact, we need divided thinking in countless varieties just to live and thrive as people, for in order to function as a person I must experience that the chair in which I sit is somehow separate from me, that the rain pouring on others’ heads does not directly make me wet, that filling your mouth with food does not fill my stomach. As with desire, the problem with divided thinking is really only a matter of excess, not the fact of categorizing, classifying, judging and distinguishing in itself, given that dividing and categorizing are the vital secret to our survival and success for millions of years, allowing us to work and compete both as individuals and as a species. A problem exists only when separation and friction, without wholeness, are the only way in which we encounter the world, or when viewpoints based on division and their accompanying tensions run to excess.

    On a daily basis, most of our judgements are practical and necessary, but sometimes they reflect a chronic, disproportionate, existential dissatisfaction that leaves us perpetually restless and rarely satiated. Some degree of self-interest, as well as self-concern with our own family, is how the marketplace functions. Nonetheless, excess self-concern can result in a world of haves and have-nots. Instead of excess self-ishness, it would be good for us each to develop a heart by which, in charity, we make sure that nobody in the world is left hungry or without shelter from the rain. In Buddhist teaching, we also come to realize the ultimate truth that rain on others’ heads does make all of us wet, that your face and mouth is truly my face and mouth in other guise, for we are all merely extensions and expressions of each other.

    Traditionally, in Buddhist speak, the above three tendencies of excess desire, anger/violence and divided thinking in ignorance, are known as the three poisons.


    (to be continued)

    Gassho, J

    stlah

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]8256[/ATTACH]
    Wtf, I mean seriously, wtf. When is the sangha going to speak out against this crap?

    Gassho,


    Jim.
    ST/LaH (to non-genetically engineered sentient beings).
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-04-2023, 06:48 AM.

    Comment

    • Tokan
      Member
      • Oct 2016
      • 1305

      #3
      Originally posted by Jimbob
      Wtf, I mean seriously, wtf. When is the sangha going to speak out against this crap?

      Gassho,


      Jim.
      ST/LaH (to non-genetically engineered sentient beings).

      Jim

      This sangha is not intolerant of alternative or differing views, and my view is that Jundo is talking about some real issues of where we are leading our technology which may ultimately lead us in some ways. While we may not be the ones researching and developing these technologies, like all other aspects of life, we should not be ignorant of them, and you will find in the other scientific threads here evidence of some amazing research being conducted that further explains some of the themes Jundo expresses. What would be useful though Jim, in the spirit of friendship and sangha, is that your views or concerns are expressed in the forum in a way that allows a discourse to take place. You may have some valid points, but if they are not expressed, how would we know? I am not a priest here, but it is the responsibility of all sangha members to support each other in this place, so I hope no one considers my intervention here out of order! Please, if you choose to express your concerns and ideas more fully, I for one would be interested to know what you think.

      Gassho, Tokan

      satlah
      平道 島看 Heidou Tokan (Balanced Way Island Nurse)
      I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 41204

        #4
        Originally posted by Jimbob
        Wtf, I mean seriously, wtf. When is the sangha going to speak out against this crap?

        Gassho,


        Jim.
        ST/LaH (to non-genetically engineered sentient beings).
        Please speak out your opinions, but civilly. Do not rage.

        By the way, I have asked you a few times, would you kindly put a human face photo to accompany your posts? It keeps things more personal around here. Thank you. I believe that I PM'd you about it before.

        Gassho, Jundo

        STLAH
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Amelia
          Member
          • Jan 2010
          • 4980

          #5
          Originally posted by Jimbob
          Wtf, I mean seriously, wtf. When is the sangha going to speak out against this crap?

          Gassho,


          Jim.
          ST/LaH (to non-genetically engineered sentient beings).
          I am not a fan of the general direction of these writings either, but I agree that it would be more helpful to explain why we feel so, rather than invoke argument. It would invite others who agree to state how they feel, rather than avoid it for fear of going against the grain.

          For example, I feel that these ideas, while they feel inevitable to Jundo, are not necessarily inevitable. Therefore I feel that spending time ruminating over the possibility of them is mute in my life and practice. I have no control over the invention or implementation of these ideas if they are indeed coming about as Jundo postulates, and nothing I think, say or feel will have any effect on their use, non-use, or existence in the future. We can talk all day about what we would like to happen and what we think will happen, but that does not change what is actually happening or is going to happen, and it does not change the vows I took or how I am planning on living my life.

          Quite frankly it reminds me of when I was very fearful of the future, and I used to read a lot of essays by people claiming to be channeling angels and alien beings, promising to bring us new genetic technologies that would change the world and make us kinder and immortal. That wasn't the best time in my life and reading similar ideas here give me concern and pause.

          Gassho
          Sat, lah
          Last edited by Amelia; 03-04-2023, 05:25 AM.
          求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
          I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 41204

            #6
            ... claiming to be channeling angels and alien beings ...
            Well, certainly, nobody here is claiming any such foolish thing.

            One can live in the present, making a good present, while learning from the past and considering the future too.

            Gassho, Jundo

            stlah
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Kotei
              Dharma Transmitted Priest
              • Mar 2015
              • 4361

              #7
              Originally posted by Jundo
              Well, certainly, nobody here is claiming any such foolish thing.
              Agreed, but that doesn't invalidate the parallel that
              a religious leader, who is neither trained in science, nor in science ethics 'proclaims' the salvation of the world, when following his worldly ideas.
              Well, not to that extend, but kind of...

              Gassho,
              Kotei sat/lah today.
              義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

              Comment

              • Jundo
                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                • Apr 2006
                • 41204

                #8
                Originally posted by Kotei
                Agreed, but that doesn't invalidate the parallel that
                a religious leader, who is neither trained in science, nor in science ethics 'proclaims' the salvation of the world, when following his worldly ideas.
                Well, not to that extend, but kind of...

                Gassho,
                Kotei sat/lah today.
                I am writing about the possible realization of Buddhist goals using technology. I do not know if the technology will come (although there are hints that it is on the horizon). I do not know if it will be efficacious (that is a matter for scientists and medical doctors publishing in peer-reviewed journals). I believe that such technology could be made available in an ethical manner, respectful of all human and civil rights, informed consent and the autonomy of free choice (stay tuned for a coming chapter on that; I am a Duke educated lawyer practicing about 40 years, I feel comfortable to write on that ... ).

                But it is PRECISELY the role of the religious leader to speak of the means of helping the world, lessening violence, releasing people from addictions and excess desires, bringing peace and ending war!

                Who the heck is "proclaiming the salvation of the world?" I am speaking of means to realize, to varying degrees, traditional Buddhist goals to ameliorate greed, anger and ignorance. That's our assigned task. The entire essay written above says that we shall not make this world perfect any time soon, maybe never, but we can make some things much better.

                Do you wish that I just stay with means such as magic Vajra chants, prayers to deities and twirling beads? Maybe I should try these folks' technique to bring about world peace? Is that less speculative, less fanciful and more likely to work?


                Gassho, J

                stlah
                Last edited by Jundo; 03-04-2023, 08:56 AM.
                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 41204

                  #9
                  It is interesting to me that, if there were shown to be medical and technological means to allow people to be less angry and violent, more moderate in their desires, less addicted to harmful substances, more empathetic to strangers including the hungry and homeless, more caring of others ... all worthwhile and traditional Buddhist goals ...

                  ... that folks would be opposed to their use by Buddhists and others as a means to realize Buddhist goals (shared by many other non-Buddhist humanitarians), or even to have a speculative discussion of such matters.

                  I guess you would rather the anger and violence, wars, over-consumption and environmental degradation which results, addictions, hunger and homelessness just continue if it means dealing with such problems with something technological, genetic, neural? We should not even talk about it, simply because it may involve possible developments in science and medicine within the coming few years?

                  It is less harmful to human beings to let them starve, die in wars, die of alcoholism, to be victims of rape and child abuse because messing with the genes (subject, of course, to proof and safety and efficacy by all standards of reputable medical testing) is somehow worse than that?? How would it be worse that that?

                  Strange Buddhists, with an unusual interpretation of the 'Vow to Save All Sentient Beings.'

                  Gassho, Jundo

                  stlah
                  Last edited by Jundo; 03-04-2023, 09:25 AM.
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Kotei
                    Dharma Transmitted Priest
                    • Mar 2015
                    • 4361

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jundo
                    I am writing about the possible realization of Buddhist goals using technology. I do not know if the technology will come (although there are hints that it is on the horizon). I do not know if it will be efficacious (that is a matter for scientists and medical doctors publishing in peer-reviewed journals). I believe that such technology could be made available in an ethical manner, respectful of all human and civil rights, informed consent and the autonomy of free choice (stay tuned for a coming chapter on that; I am a Duke educated lawyer practicing about 40 years, I feel comfortable to write on that ... ).

                    But it is PRECISELY the role of the religious leader to speak of the means of saving the world, lessening violence, releasing people from addictions and excess desires, bringing peace and ending war!

                    Who the heck is "proclaiming the salvation of the world?" I am speaking of means to realize, to varying degrees, traditional Buddhist goals to ameliorate greed, anger and ignorance. That's our assigned task. The entire essay written above says that we shall not make this world perfect any time soon, but we can make some things much better.

                    Do you wish that I just stay with means such as magic Vajra chants, prayers to deities and twirling beads? Maybe I should try these folks' technique to bring about world peace? Is that less speculative, less fanciful and more likely to work?
                    My post contained some rhetoric in the words I had chosen. I did so, because I wanted to make the parallel, I am seeing, clear.
                    I am sorry for that. I hope to stay away from such now.
                    Of course you know that I don't believe in magic nonsense.

                    There may be such technologies in the future, which could help with a better future for us all.

                    But I do believe in dividing religious and worldly affairs.
                    Scientists, not narrative science news, should be heard and the people who are affected, in form of their elected representatives, should discuss publicly and decide.
                    Religious leaders should play a role in this discussion, too.
                    Further more, teaching compassion, unity, understanding of our oneness beyond discussion and words, seeing the greater whole, love, religious education and practices to guide those above, imho is the job of the religions.
                    Working on the identification and implementation of certain techniques, to me, is a worldly affair - politics - activism.

                    From what I understand, there are some science hypothesis, that behavior might be affected by certain genetic constellations.
                    But it is largely agreed on that a main factor in behavior is social structure, culture, surroundings, perception of life circumstances (pressure on the individual), suffering and more.
                    I think religion can play a significant role in reducing this right here and now. No future technology needed.

                    I am obviously not the right person to discuss these technologies here.
                    I don’t even agree with what should be assumed (points in the head of the initial postings) for discussing in these threads.
                    I don’t think that mind manipulation techniques and behavior control via genetic manipulations CAN be used in the positive way I should assume.

                    Not just from political leaders and countries like China or Russia or "racial hygiene"-Germany in the past. When looking at how the health system in the US benefits large companies and sacrifices peoples lives for it, I don’t know where I should take that optimism to assume such, from. But that is politics which should also not be discussed here.

                    Gassho,
                    Kotei sat/lah today.
                    義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 41204

                      #11
                      I am a Buddhist priest ... and activist, and citizen and lawyer.

                      OpenAI confirmed that fact for me just this morning, and we must trust AI ...

                      Jundo Cohen is also known for his dedication to helping others, both through his teaching and his social activism. He has been involved in various social justice causes, including environmentalism and human rights, and he encourages his students to engage in compassionate action as part of their Zen practice.

                      https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...326#post320326
                      I have a right to speak of these issues, I am also no fool when it comes to science and technology. (In my legal work, I actually deal with quite a bit.)

                      In any case, I posted about another device this week. Could something similar be used to head off the craving for a drink by the alcoholic? Sexual urges arising in the convicted child molester? Not for me to say, but seems like something to investigate by the experts, and technically not so far-fetched to imagine it might. If a device like this could do so (e.g., firing neutralizing signals upon detecting sexual arousal or raging anger), it is possible that untold numbers of children and other victims of violence could be saved from being raped etc..

                      Is a religious leader allowed to comment on saving children from being raped etc.? Curing addictions? I believe that such are precisely the kinds of issues we are to comment on in society, together with such other topics as ending war, feeding the poor, climate change, and the like. That is what I am doing.

                      Suppressing Symptoms – A Neuro-Chip To Manage Brain Disorders

                      Researchers at EPFL have combined the fields of low-power chip design, machine learning algorithms, and soft implantable electrodes to create a neural interface capable of identifying and mitigating symptoms of various neurological disorders.


                      ... The system boasts a 256-channel high-resolution sensing array and an energy-efficient machine learning processor, enabling it to effectively extract and categorize a wide range of biomarkers from real patient data and in-vivo animal models of disease. This results in a high level of accuracy in symptom prediction. ... NeuralTree functions by extracting neural biomarkers – patterns of electrical signals known to be associated with certain neurological disorders – from brain waves. It then classifies the signals and indicates whether they herald an impending epileptic seizure or Parkinsonian tremor, for example. If a symptom is detected, a neurostimulator – also located on the chip – is activated, sending an electrical pulse to block it.

                      ... “Eventually, we can use neural interfaces for many different disorders, and we need algorithmic ideas and advances in chip design to make this happen. This work is very interdisciplinary, and so it also requires collaborating with labs like the Laboratory for Soft Bioelectronic Interfaces, which can develop state-of-the-art neural electrodes or labs with access to high-quality patient data. ...




                      NeuralTree.
                      Gassho, J

                      stlah
                      Last edited by Jundo; 03-04-2023, 09:23 AM.
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Kotei
                        Dharma Transmitted Priest
                        • Mar 2015
                        • 4361

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jundo
                        OpenAI confirmed that fact for me just this morning, and we must trust AI ...
                        I am a Buddhist priest ... and activist, and citizen and lawyer.

                        Originally posted by Jundo
                        Jundo Cohen is also known for his dedication to helping others, both through his teaching and his social activism. He has been involved in various social justice causes, including environmentalism and human rights, and he encourages his students to engage in compassionate action as part of their Zen practice.

                        Well, you beat me there.
                        OpenAI thinks I don't exist. Which is very bad for my ego, but very true from a different perspective.

                        I believe that our Bodhisattva path of compassion and ethics and much more calls us to take an active role.
                        I am an activist, citizen and practicing buddhist. But although one informs the other, in my life they both have their time and space.

                        Gassho,
                        Kotei sat/lah today.
                        義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 41204

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Kotei
                          Well, you beat me there.
                          OpenAI thinks I don't exist. Which is very bad for my ego, but very true from a different perspective.

                          I believe that our Bodhisattva path of compassion and ethics and much more calls us to take an active role.
                          I am an activist, citizen and practicing buddhist. But although one informs the other, in my life they both have their time and space.

                          Gassho,
                          Kotei sat/lah today.
                          I am for saving the abused children, ending rape and other violence, making us less consumption oriented so that the planet's resources are not exhausted, preventing war, feeding the hungry and housing the homeless ...

                          ... instilling empathy and good ethics in the wider population through any ethical means possible.

                          I will even twirl beads and do a dance in a funny mask if it would help ... (although I do not believe that it would, so I don't.)

                          Gassho, J

                          stlah
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Tokan
                            Member
                            • Oct 2016
                            • 1305

                            #14
                            Hi everyone

                            Kotei, you say
                            I do believe in dividing religious and worldly affairs.
                            and I'd like to offer my perspective on this to add to the discussion.

                            In my view, this is perhaps the greatest failing of all the religions of the world, buddhism included. If religion is the answer to humanity's problems, then with so much religion around why are we in such a mess? Of course, religion has to be applied in a certain way to bring about the change we would all like to see - whether the 16 precepts or the 10 commandments, if applied as intended we would not likely be where we are now. My personal view is that religion, perhaps better described as our personal spiritual relationship with the known universe, should be the basis of how we engage with life. My Zen life and my work life, for example, are not divided. My behaviour in the world is my religion effectively. For me it is similar with science, it should be objective, but this does not necessarily need to be divided from the religious life or inspiration. In my view, if a scientist is a Buddhist, then it would be precisely their Bodhisattva vows that would lead them to develop technologies that are designed to save all sentient beings.

                            For me this quest is both personal and professional. I work in mental health and while there are some great stories of people overcoming great adversity in trauma or mental illness, for many people with mental distress or illness, it is a daily struggle. Compounding that are the medications with both positive and negative effects. If a victim of sexual abuse can receive a neuromodulating therapy that blocks those memories, I believe they should be offered it. I see no shame in taking such alternative therapies. It would not make you less human, not weaker for not confronting the trauma. Even for the perpetrator, if these desires were tormenting them until they acted on them, and they remain tormented, why not offer them some technology that can prevent the desires from arising - again, I see this as not being less Buddhist. Sometimes desire or craving is on a level beyond the mundane, we are not worrying about people craving cars or money, that can be dealt with by therapy or religious engagement as we do now. Also in my work I see many people who's conditioning through those mechanisms you describe, social, etc, being tragically beyond redemption, with only palliation of the excesses of their disorganised and poorly formed personalities. How do we fix that!

                            I certainly agree with others here that these discussions are troubling, we know from human history and the present times that any technology can be used for good or evil, and that we are struggling (as a species) for our practical and spiritual survival. I have concerns that some of the technologies being developed might be adopted to save us from ourselves, with a two-tier system of humans being created, those who are 'modified for their own good' and those who are 'pure'. In another time we have been there with disastrous consequences. That is not to say this would happen again, but the current leaders of our world do not give us much hope for good actions based on good intentions. It is difficult to maintain a religious stance while being immediately practical in the world, but I fear we have no choice but to take sides in this world that we recognise as having no sides.

                            Thank you all for being honest and open with your views.

                            Gassho, Tokan

                            satlah
                            平道 島看 Heidou Tokan (Balanced Way Island Nurse)
                            I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

                            Comment

                            • Bion
                              Senior Priest-in-Training
                              • Aug 2020
                              • 5092

                              #15
                              [FutureBuddha (16)] Not A Perfect 'Pure Land,' But A Peaceful, Good Land

                              Originally posted by Jundo
                              It is interesting to me that, if there were shown to be medical and technological means to allow people to be less angry and violent, more moderate in their desires, less addicted to harmful substances, more empathetic to strangers including the hungry and homeless, more caring of others ... all worthwhile and traditional Buddhist goals ...

                              ... that folks would be opposed to their use by Buddhists and others as a means to realize Buddhist goals (shared by many other non-Buddhist humanitarians), or even to have a speculative discussion of such matters.

                              I guess you would rather the anger and violence, wars, over-consumption and environmental degradation which results, addictions, hunger and homelessness just continue if it means dealing with such problems with something technological, genetic, neural? We should not even talk about it, simply because it may involve possible developments in science and medicine within the coming few years?

                              It is less harmful to human beings to let them starve, die in wars, die of alcoholism, to be victims of rape and child abuse because messing with the genes (subject, of course, to proof and safety and efficacy by all standards of reputable medical testing) is somehow worse than that?? How would it be worse that that?

                              Strange Buddhists, with an unusual interpretation of the 'Vow to Save All Sentient Beings.'

                              Gassho, Jundo

                              stlah
                              Speaking strictly from the perspective of those asking “what does that mean for Buddhism?”, I guess the controversial idea here, to many, might be that, should this world come to exist and should these goals be attainable with such ease, Buddhist practice, as we understand it nowadays, would be rendered useless. If my need to “practice like my head is on fire” ends with taking a treatment that effectively and permanently eliminates greed anger and delusion, then I would be naturally manifesting the qualities of a Buddha, but without the looming danger that we face now of falling back into delusion. I guess in that scenario, Buddhist practice would have to be redefined or forgotten.

                              On the other hand, Buddhist practice as we known it is only a necessity because we struggle with our human shortcomings. Should we rid ourselves of those flaws, all goals of Buddhism would be attained, and we’d be just manifesting or embodying buddhahood effortlessly.

                              Ultimately though , there will always be humans who choose a different path, the same way there are people nowadays who’d rather die on a ventilator than take a vaccine, thus there will always be anger, greed and delusion, but in that hypothetical future, where the majority of humans are free of those three poisons, there will probably be fewer empathetic people who can identify with those struggles and the solution would not be the Eightfold Path, but a doctor’s lab.

                              Sorry about the length, wish I could’ve stayed within 3 sentences [emoji53]

                              [emoji1374] Sat Today
                              Last edited by Bion; 03-04-2023, 10:58 AM.
                              "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

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