[FutureBuddha (10)] Turning Coming Technologies in Good Directions ...

[Denaso]

Hi there fellow travellers!

I'm not going to go super long here, but have a couple of reflections of my own. Denaso, you say...



Not that I am disagreeing, as I see that it could go both ways, but one thing I wonder is that most of what we have now, in technological terms, is simply layered onto our lives, such as the latest role-play app's that essentially provide you with computer generated friends so that you don't have to deal with the complexities of human relationships. It doesn't change 'what' we are, but leads to changes in 'how' we are. work in mental health and I see people replacing reality with this 'reality' which seems to me to be heaping delusion upon delusion. I do see the potential for genetic modification to alter the basis of human consciousness and therefore our lived internal experience. Would this render us as little better than AI? Would we need to redefine what human actually is? Or would be be doing what Jundo suggests, and inventing our successor species? With the advances in genetic technology, I know there are serious conversations being had about 'fixing' the genetic loopholes in people who are considered to be at high risk of developing chronic mental illness, such as with schizophrenia or bi-polar disorder. It seems to me the very thing that makes us 'human' is the range of conscious experience we can have, that we can even experience an existential crisis seems to be essential to that. Remove the 'bad' and what are we left with? How can you exercise free-will, and therefore see deep into yourself and realise the Buddhist way, if your free-will is restricted by changing how your brain and mind work, controlling how your personality develops. Ultimately I do not think these are going to be Buddhist issues because the world as a whole will decide, should we maintain our technological societies long enough to see this technology reach the level required. Whether we reinvent or burn ourselves, the future certainly looks dystopian from where I stand now.

Technology can continue to support us, destroy us, augment us, or replace us - hopefully we choose wisely!

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

I work with college students and I see something similar. Their online social lives and experiences are as real and compelling to them as their real world interactions. They don't see it as two different worlds. It's all one seamless life to them.

I think your questions about the outcomes of genetic engineering are quite interesting. Right now I don't have a strong feeling for how possible genetic engineering will turn out to be. On the one hand, biology is orders of magnitude more complicated than chemistry or physics. On the other hand, people have been dreaming about being able to control their own bodies probably for as long as there have been people. If it's doable then it probably will be done. My guess is that it probably won't turn out to be doable to the degree or in the exact ways that people today are hoping for. And it's possible that someone will make a terrible mistake that turns everyone against genetic engineering entirely.

Mental illness is quite a huge topic. And we are so very ignorant about how our brains work and how genes work. I'm skeptical (I know you are surprised!) that things like depression or anxiety could be removed because they seem to be epigenetic in nature. It would probably be a lot simpler and less expensive to try to make sure that children have enough food to eat, safe homes to live in, and well adjusted caregivers. That's not sexy or sci-fi though.

I would not be surprised if it turns out that we've already reached the high water mark of human technology instead of this time being right before the exponential curve goes straight up.


Abe

[Tokan]

Mental illness is quite a huge topic. And we are so very ignorant about how our brains work and how genes work. I'm skeptical (I know you are surprised!) that things like depression or anxiety could be removed because they seem to be epigenetic in nature. It would probably be a lot simpler and less expensive to try to make sure that children have enough food to eat, safe homes to live in, and well adjusted caregivers. That's not sexy or sci-fi though.

I would not be surprised if it turns out that we've already reached the high water mark of human technology instead of this time being right before the exponential curve goes straight up.


Abe

Yes I agree, epigenetics and social circumstance are powerful influences and, one would think, so much easier to improve than rewriting human DNA, but look at cancer, we know how to reduce the incidence through lifestyle and yet there is (it seems) a more prominent focus on the high techology of cures (the sexy bit!). I do think, perhaps similar to yourself, that we assume we can keep expanding our technology exponentially. I wonder if with the type of technology we are creating these days if we have plateau's before the next 'big leap', and also wonder if we are reaching a plateau. And to what end are we pushing certain technologies over others, I mean, will AI ever solve famine? I hope I live long enough to see some of what the future does hold in this respect.

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[Jundo]

epigenetics and social circumstance are powerful influences and, one would think, so much easier to improve than rewriting human DNA ... if we have plateau's before the next 'big leap', and also wonder if we are reaching a plateau. And to what end are we pushing certain technologies over others, I mean, will AI ever solve famine? ...

If technology plateaus, then it will plateau. And if it does not plateau, then it will not.

When it comes to solving the stubborn problems of humanity, then I would suggest using ALL effective means.

As to AI and famine (these are just a sample) ...

Artificial intelligence could stop millions from going hungry by 2030

https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/06/30/could-artificial-intelligence-stop-840-million-people-from-going-hungry-by-2030

Global Hunger Is Rising, Artificial Intelligence Can Help

https://reliefweb.int/report/world/global-hunger-rising-artificial-intelligence-can-help

AI Can Help End World Hunger, One Crop at a Time

https://appen.com/blog/ai-helps-end-world-hunger/

Gassho, J

stlah

[Tokan]

Yes thank you Jundo

I think you have said elsewhere, that if we cannot stop causing the problems (such as soil degradation) then we have to accept some solutions that will mitigate them. Perhaps AI bots could take over the manual labour of crop rearing and harvesting, since one of the problems I know we have in New Zealand is a lack of labour for agriculture.

We have certainly had some big technological leaps in human history. Some of the directions being explored now seem to me to be extensions and explorations of what we already have. When technology plateaus I do not believe that means the creative community is stagnating, I think there is a natural process of absorbing and 'norming' the new knowledge and technology before the next wave of advances is made. So I think the plateau is more in the realm of mass production and use, as all the research you post about here demonstrates that continual search for fresh insights and technology. All of this is a great antidote to the constant stream of negative reporting and is a cause for great hope about the future, which may look very different to the present time.

Gassho, Tokan

SatLah

[Denaso]

As I understand it the issues with famine are almost entirely human caused or are at least greatly exacerbated by humans. Things like transportation logistics, transportation costs, graft, politics, and challenges created by conflicts between "the way things are done" in different locations not working together.

Highly centralized production of mono-crops is also a major contributor. Ukraine grows something like 20% or 30% of the grain in the world. When Russia invaded and the grain couldn't be shipped people in Africa started starving. I drove from Vermont to Washington about five years ago. It was shocking to me that basically every farm in the mid-west is growing soy. Miles upon miles of soy and most of the rest was corn. Washington state is a major producer of apples but it's almost impossible to get Washington grown apples in Washington. Most of the apples in our stores here come from New Zealand.

My wife works for a publisher that specializes in farming books. This one publisher has printed hundreds of books written by farmers that detail all the ways that they run their own farms to be efficient and not only not destroy top soil but actually maintain and improve it. But because food production is a for profit enterprise in most of the world the huge agro-business companies that make the decisions about how farms are run all have the same essential outlook on the process. Maximize profit, minimize costs. They are literally strip mining top soil and then relying on an arms race of genetically engineered crops, pesticides, and fertilizers to keep the soil producing.

When people encounter a problem, we tend to find the most maximally simple, least expensive, strategy to "solve" that problem. People have little understanding of how deeply interconnected everything is (What do we Buddhists call this? Inter-dependent co-arising?), instead they view the world as being made up of discrete parts that are interchangeable. New grand technologies won't fix that error of thought.

AI is programmed by people who generally hold this implicitly view point, nearly all of the data that is fed into AI systems has this viewpoint as an implicit assumption. Also, AI is a marketing term that is nearly devoid of meaning. It isn't intelligence. It is a bunch of algorithms that output "results" based on massive sets of already known data. There is nothing that you or I would identify as thought happening in an AI system. It is just cascading weighted statistical values all the way down. AI systems cannot explain the chain of reasoning that underlies the results they give because there IS NO REASONING. This aspect worries me deeply because "AI" has the potential to become a sort of ersatz all powerful oracle that is only capable of spitting out already known answers. It could be the ultimate force for stagnation in human thought and culture. Something like the pronouncements of a secular dogmatic god that it is impossible to question because it is incapable of explaining it's answers.

I think that the challenges in our world are primarily created by the unquestioned habitual things that we assume are true about "how the world works". Adding layer upon layer of complex technologies make it harder to identify that it is our implicit assumptions that are the ultimate source of a lot of the challenges we face.

I guess I sound super negative but I'm actually quite hopeful for the future. There are a lot of people talking about ways that we can make our world better for ourselves. I do think that humans are capable of becoming aware of our implicit assumptions. I am just so profoundly skeptical of technological "solutions" because to my way of thinking they both don't address the real issues and they allow and encourage the continuance of the status quo, potentially in an ultimate way.

I work with technology every day for my job. I'm acutely aware of how fragile, limited, and misunderstood the limitations and capabilities of today's technologies are. I hope that my skeptical contrarian view point isn't a problem. Just let me know if it is and I'll stop.


Abe

[Seiko]

If such is the case, should not ethical Buddhists, together with other concerned individuals around the world, do what we can to have such technologies used for the greater good when and if they appear on the scene?

Do I think I have any influence on these matters? No. Should Buddhists try to influence future use of science and technology? Yes. But I don't know how?

Innovation is usually fuelled by the wish to increase profits.

I hope there will still be altruistic people who are not wholly motivated by money.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah