[FutureBuddha (10)] Turning Coming Technologies in Good Directions ...

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40783

    [FutureBuddha (10)] Turning Coming Technologies in Good Directions ...


    Hello Fellow Time Travelers, as we head into tomorrow ...

    My book posits that very soon, or in the not so distant to middling future, certain technological developments will happen ... or at least, have a high chance of happening. Many of these innovations might not be stoppable even should we try, no more than criminalizing drugs, prohibitions on pirated software and banning the darker corners of the internet have been successful in halting their spread. It is likewise most possible that such technologies and inventions could be subject to misuse by bad actors, or not used for the best of purposes, although they might be used for great human good instead.

    If such is the case, should not ethical Buddhists, together with other concerned individuals around the world, do what we can to have such technologies used for the greater good when and if they appear on the scene?

    My book tosses out a few examples in its introductory chapter. Assuming, for the moment, that technological possibilities like the following actually shall come to be, and that they cannot be stopped by protests, nor banned or effectively regulated away by law (please assume the foregoing for purposes of this exercise), what should be the response of Buddhists and others people world-wide concerned for the future of humanity? Please don't blame me for these potential happenings and technologies, or hold me to be their advocate or inventor or salesman. Nor am I guarantying that all of this will definitely happen, although some or much of it sure seems like it might. I am just the messenger and story-teller here, asking you "what if" questions about tomorrow's technological cross-roads, the ethical choices we face, raising scenes of very possible future histories.

    My question is, if such things are coming down the pike, what is our best response as Buddhists and citizens concerned for the future of our planet and the human race? Just to close the door and walk away? To write criticisms in books and essays, but take no real action? To attack in a Luddite way? Pass laws, even if likely ineffectual? To try to use these technologies in good ways ourselves, even though bad actors might do the opposite?

    What do we do should some of these come to be?

    From my book:

    ~ ~ ~

    In a matter of years, the biology of the human body will be merged with machine, the mind with AI and other enhancements. Indeed, this union has already begun via today's primitive attempts at neural stimulators and robotized artificial limbs. Soon our arms and legs will be made more powerful, the paralyzed will walk, our heart and lungs will be supplemented or replaced by human made devices or laboratory-cultivated organs. Our very DNA will be modified, repaired or supplanted with designer genes that will cure diseases and give us abilities and talents known only to other species and superheroes. Strength, dexterity, durability, adaptability, quickness and IQ will all be greatly enhanced. Children’s mental powers and personality traits will be selected and molded. Physical beauty and appearances will be designed and crafted according to fashion and taste, much as we now choose clothes, haircuts and body ink.

    ...

    We homo sapiens will be the first species to plan and build our own successor species (likely many species, in fact, each specialized for its intended work and environmental needs), rather than passively waiting on natural selection to take its tortuous course. We will bio-engineer a menagerie of creatures, limited only by the possibilities of genetics, physics, market demand and human imagination, and will do so as simply as gardeners today breed new roses. Animal DNA will be added to our own, latent genes will be activated, and brand-new genes and stem cell applications will be invented in labs, all with flesh, flash memory, nerve fibers and optical fibers blended seamlessly. Our brains may have direct access to the online world, with links to the most powerful databases and computer networks flowing right into the cortex … but, if we are lax, with hackers, viruses and ransomware flowing in too!

    ...

    Soon, the entire barrier between the “real” and “enhanced” or “virtual” reality will drop. After all, the entirety of what you are experiencing right this second as “your life” and “your room” in which “you” sit is but a mental model being created in the neural matter between your ears, based on sense data contacted by the sense organs, which is turned into electro-chemical signals, then interpreted, categorized, and refashioned in the mind as your present experience. Buddhists have said basically as much for thousands of years. ... If we replace that incoming data, alter those electro-chemical signals, reprogram how the neurons process and interpret it all, then the “real” experience can be very different, and perhaps any experience we might choose to purchase or install.

    ...

    In the near future, lifespans may become incredibly long, perhaps attaining hundreds of years (and from there, who knows?) ...

    ...

    [Perchance] some of our computers will themselves become so smart, so self-aware, that we would have to call them living, feeling, intelligent “sentient beings” too. Our creations soon might begin to design even more powerful creations of their own, all without our help or oversight, better and faster than can any human designer. Then, if history is any guide, those more powerful “artificial” sentient beings will take over completely, run the show, make discoveries which we struggle to understand, not need us to slow them down, will evolve into our replacements as the dominant species on this planet, then on other planets; perhaps, if we are fortunate, they’ll keep human beings around as useful servants, zoo specimens, and cute pets. Maybe we’ll somehow manage to keep control over our smarter creations, or become part of them, or become them. After all, Cro-magnon man is still around, within us, deep in our genes: We will be found as hitchhikers, deep in the DNA and programming of creatures and machines to come. In fact, are they not who we shall have become?

    After all, if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em!

    ...

    The development of solar and other alternative energies, laboratory grown foods and hyper-productive agricultural methods, new inventions and artificial substitutes for vital minerals and other raw materials, genetic techniques to restore and replenish the oceans, processes to clean the air by removing carbon and other pollutants, electric vehicles, digital printing and other advanced methods of producing whatever we desire at the push of a button in cheap and ample supply, may solve issues of shortage, resource depletion, pollution and poverty. Things we now hoard and, too often, fight wars over will become plentiful. Nutritious foods will become available to all. Both necessary and luxury goods will be cheaper and easier to produce, and the world may become cleaner and better preserved due to more efficient manufacturing and pollution-free energy. On the other hand, such riches could lead to even greater materialism, endless hungers for the latest fads and shiny things, much as we have seen in the consumer driven West where our ever-expanding ability to produce something “new” seems merely to feed ever expanding desires and waistlines. Some nations will keep polluting just because it is cheaper than not. Mass production could result in even greater environmental harm or destruction, and overflowing supplies of food and fuel will mean little if unequal distribution and selfishness leads to some with too much and some with too little, or none at all.

    Will we satisfy desires and cravings, or only expand them with expanding production?

    The future will bring technological revolutions, stunning innovations, new discoveries and near-miraculous cures. But will we use them wisely? Will our inventions serve as tools to build a better, kinder, fairer world, or as weapons of violence, robbers of resources, and Orwellian means of oppression? Can advances in scientific ability go hand-in-hand with heightened respect for nature, a cherishing of sustainability and stillness, a willingness to slow down or stop the non-stop assembly lines? Will increased social complexity be infused with simplicity, a prioritizing of human well-being and human rights, equal opportunity and freedom, instead of raw economic expansion, self-interest and social inequalities? Can human beings learn to live in harmony with the planet, or will we continue to disrespect and destroy nature, too easily overlooking life’s simple treasures in favor of our continued consumption frenzy and addiction to “progress?” Will our economic systems function to improve the quality of human life over raw quantity, allowing us to share in health and healthy living, or will we enslave humans in the service of industrial and other masters, some of whom may themselves be “enhanced” lifeforms and machines not “human” at all?

    Can we bring future heavens to earth, or only hells and hungry ghosts of our own making?

    Zen and other Buddhist values, common to good people of many creeds and philosophies, might serve as a shining beacon, illuminating healthier paths.

    It remains largely up to us whether tomorrow brings dystopian nightmares to rival any Hollywood fantasy, or realizes paradise and the Pure Land on this earth. Buddhist wisdom and compassion can guide us in good and healthful directions.

    (to be continued)



    Gassho, J

    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 04-12-2023, 01:25 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Tai Do
    Member
    • Jan 2019
    • 1455

    #2
    Thank you, Jundo.

    It remains largely up to us whether tomorrow brings dystopian nightmares to rival any Hollywood fantasy, or realizes paradise and the Pure Land on this earth.
    Unfortunately, if we use the past as a good indication of the future, the latter outcome is much less likely than the former. Especially when we as individuals and communities have very little power to change the big decisions our political and economical leaders take and dictate to us.

    Gassho,
    Tai Do
    Satlah
    怠努 (Tai Do) - Lazy Effort
    (also known as Mateus )

    禅戒一如 (Zen Kai Ichi Nyo) - Zazen and the Precepts are One!

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40783

      #3
      Originally posted by Tai Do
      Thank you, Jundo.



      Unfortunately, if we use the past as a good indication of the future, the latter outcome is much less likely than the former. Especially when we as individuals and communities have very little power to change the big decisions our political and economical leaders take and dictate to us.

      Gassho,
      Tai Do
      Satlah
      So, I might add one more Bodhisattva Vow ...

      To save the future, though the future is unsavable (and timeless too).


      In any case, maybe we will succeed. I feel that, assuming we don't wipe ourselves out (in which case, the ants or crabs or monkees will get a chance as the earth hits the "reset" button and, with a few million years, tries again), we must make the wise choices and take the beneficial actions to succeed.

      I have some trust that, in the end, we will make just a few small "tweaks" to civilization, and will actually solve a large number of problems. What are those tweaks:

      - Turning away from our biological tendency to act in violence toward our fellow human beings which is driven by uncontrolled excesses of anger, sexual desire and the like (from gun violence to rape to child abuse to all manner of violent crimes).

      - Our biologically coming to feel greater empathy toward our fellow sentient beings, so that we consider even strangers across the world as we feel today toward our own parents, siblings and children, such that one is much less likely to allow someone to be homeless on the streets, or hungry on the other side of the world, any more than one would allow one's own mother or child to be hungry and homeless.

      - Reducing our tendency toward excess consumption in many forms, with the accompanying waste and misuse of resources and abuse of the environment, such that we feel satisfaction earlier and with less.

      - Production that makes needs, and even luxuries, more plentiful while finding substitute sources of energy and raw materials, thus avoiding wars over those things.

      I believe that, maybe, those changes would solve a plethora of problems we now face, eliminate many existential threats to civilization, and make the world very pleasant and healthful to live in. Furthermore, while still years away, it is not totally outside the realm of possibility now.

      All is in keeping with our Buddhist mission to turn from the Three Poisons of excess desire, anger, and "us/them" and other divided thinking.

      Stay tuned for later chapters of this discussion ... and my book.

      Gassho, J

      stlah
      Last edited by Jundo; 02-09-2023, 01:48 AM.
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Rich
        Member
        • Apr 2009
        • 2614

        #4
        China russia and the US are fighting about who controls the money but there are hundreds of thousands of people building decentralized money and financial systems that no one entity can control. This is humanities number 1 endeavor to reduce greed and centralized power

        Sat/lah


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        _/_
        Rich
        MUHYO
        無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

        https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40783

          #5
          Originally posted by Rich
          China russia and the US are fighting about who controls the money but there are hundreds of thousands of people building decentralized money and financial systems that no one entity can control. This is humanities number 1 endeavor to reduce greed and centralized power
          Frankly, I am not sure that that is a good thing. Generally, I am much more in favor of coming together, using power and finances wisely, than pulling apart. To do so seems an invitation back to warlord-ism, little financial fiefs, unregulated abuses, hording by some, inequalities ... hmmm.

          Although not exactly on point, I was just reading this yesterday, by chance. Very interesting:

          How Sam Bankman-Fried's fall exposes the perils of effective altruism

          A controversial philosophical movement helps explain how someone could rationalize FTX's alleged misbehavior.


          Effective altruism is a niche but influential theory of how to do good in the world. It’s buzzy in Silicon Valley, Oxford University and in certain corners of progressive data analysis, and its advocates have tens of billions of dollars at their disposal. But in the hands of Bankman-Fried (commonly known as SBF), effective altruism was neither effective nor altruistic. Instead, he illustrated how the do-gooder ideology can serve as a sleek vehicle for immense social harm. ... if one pays close attention to the more unsettling ideas behind how effective altruism works, it should become apparent how this whole debacle unfolded.

          Effective altruists claim they strive to use reason and evidence to do the most good possible for the most people. Influenced by utilitarian ethics, they’re fond of crunching numbers to determine sometimes counterintuitive ideas for maximizing a philanthropic act’s effects by focusing on “expected value,” which they believe can be calculated by multiplying the value of an outcome by the probability of it occurring.

          SBF belonged to the “longtermist” sect of effective altruism, which focuses on events that could pose a long-term existential threat to humanity, like pandemics or the rise of runaway artificial intelligence. The reasoning for this focus is that more people will exist in the future than exist today, and thus the potential to do more good for more people is greater. He also adopted one of the movement’s signature strategies for effecting social change called “earning to give,” in which generating high income is more important than what kind of job one takes, because it enables people to give away more money for philanthropy. As a college student, SBF had lunch with William MacAskill, the most prominent intellectual advocate for effective altruism in the world, and then reportedly went into finance, and then crypto, based on the idea that it would allow him to donate more money. SBF had said he planned to give almost all of his vast wealth away.

          But as SBF faces allegations of fraud and has overseen the overnight evaporation of a million people's assets, his belief system is receiving new scrutiny. His shocking admissions to a Vox reporter a couple of weeks ago, in a conversation that he later said he did not realize was on the record, provides a window into the reckoning effective altruism is now facing. In online conversation with the reporter, SBF referred to his bids in the past to appear regulator-friendly as “just PR,” and he disavowed some of his previous statements about ethics. When the reporter asked whether he was being honest in past interviews when he said he would not do certain bad things for a greater good, such as running a tobacco company, he responded with a cryptic “heh.” At one particularly jaw-dropping point SBF responds affirmatively to a question about whether his “ethics stuff” was “mostly a front.”

          https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-...ried-rcna59172
          Gassho, J

          stlah
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Rich
            Member
            • Apr 2009
            • 2614

            #6
            FTX is an example of a centralized for profit entity taking advantage of the defi movement. There is an expression that if you don’t control your keys you don’t really own your crypto money. Stay away from centralized exchanges

            Sat/lah


            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
            _/_
            Rich
            MUHYO
            無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

            https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

            Comment

            • Denaso
              Member
              • Feb 2023
              • 11

              #7
              A very interesting topic.

              I'm afraid that I disagree that most of these technologies will turn out to even be possible, let alone inevitable. And even if some of them do come to pass I don't see them changing the situation very much for humans on an individual level. Maybe the ephemera of their day-to-day lives will change, like how we all carry cell phones with us at all times now, but the internal experience of being living beings won't change much.

              My perspective is that the long history of Homo sapiens has shown that you can (try to) take the ape out of Nature but you can't get the Nature out of the ape. By this I mean that throughout all the historical developments of our species it's the day-to-day life experiences of individuals that start up the processes that the four noble truths describe. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Homo sapiens walking around Africa 200,000 years ago or me walking my dog today.

              Intelligence, beauty, strength, etc. these are all relative in value, not absolute. So, no matter how "perfectly" we can gene-edit our offspring there will be individual differences and even the minutest of differences will fuel the process of suffering. In my experience, it often happens that the more minute the differences between people the more chasm-like those differences will be perceived to be, especially in human social circles where the magnitude of a thing seems to be proportional to how much it is talked about. Maybe that's just one way that 13 years of Catholic school scarred me though.

              AI will almost certainly end up as more financializing scam than real thing in the end. It'll collapse back to being called "machine learning" or some other even more bland term. It'll be widely used in very specific controlled circumstances like Teflon or microwave radiation. AI systems have no phenomenological experience and almost certainly never will. "The Chinese room" argument is a good explanation for this. AI hype all rests on unexamined assumptions about what "intelligence" is coupled with uncritical assumptions that if we just build hardware and software that is complex "enough" the machine will somehow transubstantiate itself into "being intelligent". Some people are happy to accept the premise that if a machine can fool a human into thinking that it is "intelligent" than it is. Which is the most insanely radical example of begging the question I've ever seen.

              I'm more open to the idea that humans might be able to develop genetic technologies that will allow radical control over our appearance and maybe extend life spans. A lot of us want to be the prettiest ape in the jungle and live forever, right? Plus there's probably a HUGE amount of money to be made in offering radical control of their physical appearance to people. And huge sums of money always seem to get humans thinking creatively and working hard. Again though, there will be suffering here and suffering is suffering. The details of the situation where suffering arises don't really matter because suffering is a human clinging to their response to experience, not the contents of the experience.

              I think that 21st century cultures fixation on these ideas for what the future might bring are more telling in a "zeitgeist" sort of way than anything else. In the 1950s people thought we'd be interstellar travelers by now. And have humanoid robots. And Fusion. And flying cars. But none of those things came to pass, instead we got the internet, social media, video games, HUGE TVs, and seven hundred brands of toothpaste. Space flight hasn't progressed much at all, although it happens more frequently and is less dangerous. Fusion is just "ten years away" like it has been since the 1950s. The biological revolution wasn't even on the minds of people in the 1950s but it's a big money maker these days (the coronavirus treatment making pharmaceutical companies made like 100 billion dollars last year) and now everyone thinks we can build a better world through genetic engineering. It was just "better living through chemistry" back in the 1950s.

              A hopelessly utopia-like future is probably a bigger challenge to Buddhism and Zen though. My memory is terrible but doesn't the Buddha say something about how being born a human is the best because animals have to struggle too much just to stay alive to discover liberation and the gods have life too easy to ever feel the need for liberation but humans have just the right mix of struggle and ease to find that they need liberation. Utopia would upset that balance. I imagine that even in a utopia people would find ways to suffer but there might be too many quick fixes available for many people to bother with something as long term and with as unsure an outcome as Zazen.

              So I guess my answer to the question is that Zen and Buddhism are already well situated to deal with the future as long as enough new people keep coming to them to keep the traditions alive.

              I have a bad habit of writing like I know what I'm talking about, especially when the subject is something that I've spent a lot of time reading and thinking about. I read too much and don't get enough opportunities in the real world to have conversations on topics that I'm interested in. I Apologize if I've offended in any way. That was not my intent.


              Abe

              Comment

              • Jundo
                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                • Apr 2006
                • 40783

                #8
                I have a bad habit of writing like I know what I'm talking about, especially when the subject is something that I've spent a lot of time reading and thinking about. I read too much and don't get enough opportunities in the real world to have conversations on topics that I'm interested in. I Apologize if I've offended in any way. That was not my intent.
                Not at all. It is very helpful, and much to consider for my book writing. Thank you, Abe.

                Gassho, Jundo

                SatTodayLAH
                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                Comment

                • Denaso
                  Member
                  • Feb 2023
                  • 11

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  Not at all. It is very helpful, and much to consider for my book writing. Thank you, Abe.

                  Gassho, Jundo

                  SatTodayLAH
                  I'm glad to hear that and happy that my thoughts might be helpful to you.


                  Abe

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40783

                    #10
                    Hi Denaso,

                    Originally posted by Denaso
                    ... I'm afraid that I disagree that most of these technologies will turn out to even be possible, let alone inevitable. And even if some of them do come to pass I don't see them changing the situation very much for humans on an individual level.
                    I would like to challenge your assertion a little. Why would the following technologies not (possibly, within the realm of "not technically unthinkable") be possible and, if they were possible, might they not work substantial positive changes in human society? No, not perfection or paradise, but a substantially better world, less crime, less human vs. human aggression, less leaving of strangers to hunger and homelessness, etc.:

                    -1- Amelioration of the propensity in some of us to experience such excesses of anger to the point of murderous rage, or violent psychopathy, or uncontrolled sexual desire that such individuals would be far less likely to engage in murder, rape etc.

                    -2- Increased levels of empathy within human beings such that one would hesitate to kill another, for the other is not objectified. Furthermore, could the caring, concern and love toward immediate family members which we now feel, biologically wired into us, possibly be extended to a wide group of strangers, or toward all people of our species by altering the wiring?

                    -3- Could we enable people to be more easily satisfied, and earlier, in their drives to consume?

                    -4- Finally, why would it be technically impossible to immerse individuals in realistic "simulated" worlds by replacing incoming sense data that is sufficiently detailed in quantities and quality of data? Certainly, we all experience something like that now, in our nightly dreams, which are real to us at the time. In the latter case, the result might not be an actual "utopian paradise," but might be a created reality that we experience as a "utopian paradise" in our dream.


                    My memory is terrible but doesn't the Buddha say something about how being born a human is the best because animals have to struggle too much just to stay alive to discover liberation and the gods have life too easy to ever feel the need for liberation but humans have just the right mix of struggle and ease to find that they need liberation. Utopia would upset that balance.
                    Yes, the Buddha is quoted as saying that, and I agree with you. Utopia might be too nice, like an opium trip. But I am not speaking of "utopia," only a world where kids are able to walk to school without fear of violence, wars are decreased, hunger and homelessness are much reduced, and there is less wasteful consumption and destruction of the environment. There are relatively minor "tweaks," and not so unthinkable these days.

                    Gassho, J

                    stlah
                    Last edited by Jundo; 02-14-2023, 01:06 AM.
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Denaso
                      Member
                      • Feb 2023
                      • 11

                      #11
                      I'm going to think about your questions for a bit before I respond.

                      Comment

                      • Denaso
                        Member
                        • Feb 2023
                        • 11

                        #12
                        In regard to point #4, one of the most fundamental problems for creating VR is that we don't actually know all that much about how sensory information is crafted into a seamless and coherent first person experience by our brains. And, in order to create a technology that piggybacks on that process we will need to know precisely and specifically how that process works. We will also probably need to have worked out a lot of the variations in how that process works from brain to brain. Brains are crazy adaptive, it could turn out that there isn't one specific way that they perform this feat of making the grass green and the sky blue. It may not be possible to create a technology that can generalize across many brains.

                        So, while my perspective is that it will turn out that VR as it is imagined here will turn out to either be impossible or impossibly far in the future, here are my hypothetical thoughts assuming that it somehow becomes real.

                        Most importantly, how exactly would your experience of immersion in a realistic simulated world be any different from your experience of the world you experience right now? We each already live immersed within an idiosyncratic simulated realistic world created by our brains. So, in talking about VR we are really talking about layering a second, controlled, mass produced, simulated realistic world on top of the one we each already live in. Would peoples experience or behavior necessarily be different within this second embedded virtual world than they are within the first?

                        You might argue that in the "real world" there's feedback between our internally experienced reality and the "outside world", that's one cause of suffering. We can all think of examples where important feeling details of our personal reality crumbled when they made contact with contradictory indisputable external facts that were beyond our control or influence.

                        I think that video games are a type of virtual reality, especially super long form multiplayer games like MMOs. Playing a game like World of Warcraft or EverQuest at a high level means being totally engaged with the game and the people you play with. Within your group you may be immensely powerful, important, and influential, able to organize people and accomplish tasks that only a small number of other people in the world can do. While at the same time in your "real" life have few social ties and have little influence or satisfaction in your life. This dislocation between your perception of your value in the virtual world and the real world could be a likely result of long term interaction with VR worlds.

                        Perhaps there might be psycho-therapeutic applications. People who have lost a loved one might have things that they'd like to be able to say to that person, for example. Would talking with a convincing virtual rendition of a lost loved one be an avenue to emotional closure? Or would it be a macabre, ersatz, abomination of an experience? It might depend more on the individual experiencing the experience than on the fidelity of the experience itself.

                        But also, given humans propensity for wallowing in sex and violence, if people spend huge chunks of their lives experiencing a virtual world where there are no socially, ethically, or morally proscribed limits to behavior they might learn things from those experiences that aren't conductive to a functional group social environment. And those behaviors when performed in the real world could also be a cause for suffering.

                        If I'm wrong and VR like you envision does become a widespread reality, I think that Zen folks are in some ways uniquely prepared for dealing with it because suffering is suffering. The details of the circumstances that start up the suffering don't really matter.

                        But it might be a lot harder to reach people who are isolated within a computerized virtual world than it is to reach them in the real world because everything in a virtual world is placed there specifically by a programmer or artist (probably increasingly a machine learning algorithm going forward). Unless one of them is a Zen person who smuggles pointers to Zen into the virtual world you aren't going to randomly discover a copy of "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" in a virtual world.

                        That's all I've got for now. Interesting things to think about. Thanks for posing the questions.


                        Abe

                        Comment

                        • Tokan
                          Member
                          • Oct 2016
                          • 1324

                          #13
                          Hi there fellow travellers!

                          I'm not going to go super long here, but have a couple of reflections of my own. Denaso, you say...

                          I'm afraid that I disagree that most of these technologies will turn out to even be possible, let alone inevitable. And even if some of them do come to pass I don't see them changing the situation very much for humans on an individual level. Maybe the ephemera of their day-to-day lives will change, like how we all carry cell phones with us at all times now, but the internal experience of being living beings won't change much.
                          Not that I am disagreeing, as I see that it could go both ways, but one thing I wonder is that most of what we have now, in technological terms, is simply layered onto our lives, such as the latest role-play app's that essentially provide you with computer generated friends so that you don't have to deal with the complexities of human relationships. It doesn't change 'what' we are, but leads to changes in 'how' we are. work in mental health and I see people replacing reality with this 'reality' which seems to me to be heaping delusion upon delusion. I do see the potential for genetic modification to alter the basis of human consciousness and therefore our lived internal experience. Would this render us as little better than AI? Would we need to redefine what human actually is? Or would be be doing what Jundo suggests, and inventing our successor species? With the advances in genetic technology, I know there are serious conversations being had about 'fixing' the genetic loopholes in people who are considered to be at high risk of developing chronic mental illness, such as with schizophrenia or bi-polar disorder. It seems to me the very thing that makes us 'human' is the range of conscious experience we can have, that we can even experience an existential crisis seems to be essential to that. Remove the 'bad' and what are we left with? How can you exercise free-will, and therefore see deep into yourself and realise the Buddhist way, if your free-will is restricted by changing how your brain and mind work, controlling how your personality develops. Ultimately I do not think these are going to be Buddhist issues because the world as a whole will decide, should we maintain our technological societies long enough to see this technology reach the level required. Whether we reinvent or burn ourselves, the future certainly looks dystopian from where I stand now.

                          Technology can continue to support us, destroy us, augment us, or replace us - hopefully we choose wisely!

                          Gassho, Tokan

                          satlah
                          平道 島看 Heidou Tokan (Balanced Way Island Nurse)
                          I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40783

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Denaso
                            In regard to point #4, one of the most fundamental problems for creating VR is that we don't actually know all that much about how sensory information is crafted into a seamless and coherent first person experience by our brains. And, in order to create a technology that piggybacks on that process we will need to know precisely and specifically how that process works. We will also probably need to have worked out a lot of the variations in how that process works from brain to brain. Brains are crazy adaptive, it could turn out that there isn't one specific way that they perform this feat of making the grass green and the sky blue. It may not be possible to create a technology that can generalize across many brains.
                            Having lived in the transition from fuzzy black and white aerial tv to digital flat screen 3-D, I am more optimistic than you that quality of the virtual and enhanced experience will improve.

                            Even so, a later chapter of my book looks toward such "holo-deck" experiences in only limited cases. Oh, there may be folks who seek to live their entire lives (or simulations of multiple lives) in such environments, but I think that they will be of most use to, for example, the dying in hospices or folks seeking short term virtual-vacations. However, if the experiences do become rich and rewarding enough, some may seek to reside long term, a kind of electric opium den, and shall be able to do so as long as the electricity and cash to pay for it keeps flowing.

                            Gassho, j

                            stlah
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                            • Denaso
                              Member
                              • Feb 2023
                              • 11

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jundo
                              Having lived in the transition from fuzzy black and white aerial tv to digital flat screen 3-D, I am more optimistic than you that quality of the virtual and enhanced experience will improve.

                              Even so, a later chapter of my book looks toward such "holo-deck" experiences in only limited cases. Oh, there may be folks who seek to live their entire lives (or simulations of multiple lives) in such environments, but I think that they will be of most use to, for example, the dying in hospices or folks seeking short term virtual-vacations. However, if the experiences do become rich and rewarding enough, some may seek to reside long term, a kind of electric opium den, and shall be able to do so as long as the electricity and cash to pay for it keeps flowing.

                              Gassho, j

                              stlah
                              I haven't been around as long as you but I've lived through the much of the same transition. My family had a small black and white tv until I was nine or ten. And then the whole "information revolution" happened with computers and the internet.

                              Remember when the internet was going to be a force for good? That didn't turn out so well. Of course there are many ways that the internet has been used to make the human world a better place. But there are a lot of ways that it seems like it's made things a lot worse too. Maybe it's more like a mirror that has shown us that we are half-wild apes who aspire to civilization rather than the refined civilized people we like to think we are.

                              I don't think there's really much tangible difference between a drug addict living in a flop house and a "VR" addict who lives as much of their life as possible in "VR" from the perspective of a Buddhist. Both situations are a person making their suffering worse by trying to escape their suffering in unskillful ways. The practical challenges of reaching these two people are probably different though.

                              Other than my skepticism that the "sci-fi" technologies that everyone seems to assume are inevitable will actually turn out to be doable in the real world, our perspective doesn't seem very different to me. There will be some uses that will benefit some people. Those same technologies will open new avenues for suffering for some people.

                              My experience over the last five or ten years has been that the "modern" world seems to be winding down, losing it's way, falling apart, drifting further and further into wish-fulfillment and day-dreams of impossible human wealth and power. Rosy technological prognostications read to me as part of this cultural fantasizing.

                              Werner Heisenberg, one of the physicist who worked on the foundations of modern physics in the 20th century said “Not only is the Universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think.”

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