Zen Practice with Physical Illness or Disability

[Kokuu]

Perhaps things will change in the years between now and when/if Jundo feels I'm suitable to begin that journey.

Even if it doesn't it wouldn't stop you being ordained here as I have. It just means that you don't get the official approval of the SZBA as things stand. We have also faced issues over face-to-face ordination and Jukai vs. online. You might think that Zen folk would be quite flexible but in reality they are a pretty conservative bunch. I guess holding authority of the western Soto line in your hands probably breeds a certain degree of caution but you also have to move with the times.

Anyway, I don't feel I am sticking my neck out terribly far in guessing that the approval of establishment organisations is probably not something you are totally bothered about!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Meian]

I am baffled on why they have such an issue over disabilities, neurodiversity, and gender differences. A prime directive is may all sentient beings be liberated from suffering -- guess I should consider ignorance to be a form of suffering as well.

The day to day is challenging enough without having to defend why we should have a voice and a place in the zendo.

Thank you, Kokuu, for all that you, Jundo, and others are doing. Would it be helpful or advisable for more of us to speak to them about acknowledging our existence?

Gassho2
Kim
St lh

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[Tai Shi]

Zen Practice with Physical Illness or Disability

Hi Kokuu, I'm not sure exactly what I did wrong with my cacophony of my various illness and or ailments. Certainly we all know that you have a sleep disorder, yet have been selected to speak for all disabilities because maybe you are better read than the rest of us, and a Ph.D. in biology does not lend merit to psychiatry, psychology, social work, counseling, neurology, brain disorders, or even arthritis doctors of all types. I ask you kindly to speak only from your own experience, and I know that severe fatigue to the point of fainting, inability to take nourishment, or attend to matters of hygiene, or even taking care of the very personal. I stand corrected, with my three advanced degrees, made almost entirely with no accommodation, and that truly might be the case. Though familiar with Haiku and having tried my hand at writing a few, this medium seems better suited to you, so with your vast experience in poetry, your knowledge of Great British poetry, I would no more trample the feet of the expert, then go the extra 1000 miles (1,609.34 km) to obtain the Ph.D. in and study of language or literature including Japanese Literature which my daughter studies to the point of someday have this hope-- Dr. Laurel will dad call her as I have an MFA creative writing poetry and now her already expert command with MFA Asian literary translation, Japanese, so I will refrain from mentioning anything at all about my personal accommodations to sit zazen-- and you?
taishi
sat/lah
Gassho

[brucef]

I am baffled on why they have such an issue over disabilities, neurodiversity, and gender differences. A prime directive is may all sentient beings be liberated from suffering -- guess I should consider ignorance to be a form of suffering as well.

The day to day is challenging enough without having to defend why we should have a voice and a place in the zendo.

Thank you, Kokuu, for all that you, Jundo, and others are doing. Would it be helpful or advisable for more of us to speak to them about acknowledging our existence?

Gassho2
Kim
St lh

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I agree totally. I always thought the Mahayana was a great (Maha) vehicle (Yana) because it was for ALL sentient beings, that it was the BIG raft that could ferry EVERYONE to the other shore, leaving none behind.

Gassho
Bruce
st/lah

[Kokuu]

Hi Tai Shi

It is completely fine for you to talk about your experiences of practice with illness.

I am sorry if I gave the impression otherwise.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jishin]

Hi Kokuu, I'm not sure exactly what I did wrong with my cacophony of my various illness and or ailments. Certainly we all know that you have a sleep disorder, yet have been selected to speak for all disabilities because maybe you are better read than the rest of us, and a Ph.D. in biology does not lend merit to psychiatry, psychology, social work, counseling, neurology, brain disorders, or even arthritis doctors of all types. I as you kindly to speak only from your own experience, and I know that severe fatigue to the point of fainting, inability to take nourishment, or attend to matters of hygiene, or even taking care of the very personal. I stand corrected, with my three advanced degrees, made almost entirely with no accommodation, and that truly might be the case. Though familiar with Haiku and having tried my hand at writing a few, this medium seems better suited to you, so with your vast experience in poetry, your knowledge of Great British poetry, I would no more trample the feet of the expert, then go the extra 1000 miles (1,609.34 km) to obtain the Ph.D. in and study of language or literature including Japanese Literature which my daughter studies to the point of someday have this hope-- Dr. Laurel will dad call her as I have an MFA creative writing poetry and now her already expert command with MFA Asian literary translation, Japanese, so I will refrain from mentioning anything at all about my personal accommodations to sit zazen-- and you?
taishi
sat/lah
Gassho

Hi Tai Shi,

If it true that attachment causes suffering because all things change then attachment to any aspect of our person causes suffering. This includes attachment to being healthy or attachment to being ill. There is nothing wrong about sharing experiences of suffering IF it leads to lessened suffering (yours and others). Use good judgment.

I counted to 30 before posting this.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Rich]

We are all in the process of wearing out and dying and it’s ok. That’s the nature of things. The Buddha nature is eternal.

[emoji120]
Sat/lah


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[Tai Shi]

Thank you Jishin for advice to use good judgement here!!!

It’s several, many, pages back. I said that I Am Not a Doctor. I cannot talk toward treatment modalities, medication, or even type of hospital or any institution. What works for one might be just what his or her, of full Rainbow of people. How could I ever presume to know anything about medicine, social work, or therapy!!! All must e careful, at least me, that I do not prescribe in any way!!! In mental health, though I have had varied experiences, most if not all are individual to me. Therefore throughout my postings I only need to post what has been only individual to me!!!
Jishin is absolutely right! I will take care!
sat
Gassho
Deep bows
Gassho


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[Tai Shi]

Zen Practice with Physical Illness or Disability

I’m very happy to say that exercise and diet diet have helped me raise my ams and hands fully above my head. Medications augmented exercise. Yet, exercise alone would be extremely painful. It depends on my pain tolerance, above seven I’m uncomfortable. Talk therapy and medications together have brought me this far, but Kokuu and sleep and or fatigue syndrome even there it’s not The same. So my situation is entirely different from Kokuu, so I must speak entirely from my experience and the help of doctors and therapists and especially my beloved. Remember I can primarily have the help of my mate. My primary care physician says Marjorie has saved my life many times each time. However, push comes to shove, I am my own best judge. So, I must report everything to my physician-because there needs to.be one qualified primary care doctor to put it all together. I rely on this person to put it all together, from Marjorie to psychiatry to therapy to even social worker. Primary was the first to recognize irregular heart pattern, and primary recognized type 2 diabetes and even. Intestinal problems long before onset of possible illnesses. Primary practices chemistry, physiology, even psychiatry. Though he’s not knowledgeable in depth he or she can put it all together. Always qualify your situation by reporting honest self appraisal to primary care and thereby the whol team of doctors and therapists. If you cannot afford a team, always report to your family practice doctor or general practitioner and also in there an athletic coach all
In all go for what money can buy, or socialized medicine.
Tai Shi
sat/lah
Gassho


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[Amelia]

Sat today, lah

[Meian]

Had the experience today, again, of trying to explain to a relative that I was waiting for a delivery of another hand/wrist brace because the ones i bought at the pharmacy were mismatched, and the odds of my getting back there any time soon to exchange (or find the correct size in stock) were slim:none. need the same size for both hands/wrists.

the pharmacy is close by, but the mental and physical energy required to drive there, look for the product, (remember everything), interact with everyone, exchange things, answer questions, etc., ....... i need to be having a *really* good energetic day to accomplish what would be a normal task for anyone else. Years ago -- no problem.

So my relative knew what i was trying to say, but God help the word-salad that came out of my mouth I have to laugh at it because otherwise i'll cry sometimes. i have times when my memory is sharp and clear, and I have times when I can do what i do every day with no problem -- just don't ask me to form coherent sentences or answer with anything except slowed speech and long pauses. Frustrating for anyone to listen to, and infuriating for me. I;m in another one of those periods again -- as evidenced this week when I apparently forgot everything i ever knew about Soto Zen and just started from scratch again. I don't know? Yet with the kind and compassionate answers given here, I started to remember/relearn some of it and started again. Realized I was okay, I was not kicked out of the family for forgetting (terrible thing to forget what you know -- how do you know if you ever knew to begin with?) or being unable to do certain things (part of the forgetting). it's quite terrifying when it comes and goes .....

Then the word salad conversation ..... allong with muscle cramps, my hands spasming again, and when exhaustion took over and I needed to lay down, shivering chills taking over on an unusually warm day. At this point I've decided, work needs a break also, I can't teach like this (word loss, chills, exhaustion). My daughter has another appointment tomorrow that I need to take her to ..... this is three long appointments/meetings in three days, a lot for me to handle.

yes i know i need more medical testing (including for carpal tunnel), but each of my things takes a few hours at a time, and this all will take months to sort out. my kids are much faster, and will resolve quicker. can't see the sense of making them wait while Mom gets her endless testing done when we already know (probably) what's going on and none of it can be fixed anyway, so .... i'm taking care of what CAN be fixed and i'll get to my nightmares when i can fit them in. my junk isn't going anywhere.

this evening, when i realized i needed to rest and the chills took over, i remembered what Jundo said yesterday. i did recline position and thought of Buddha when they were ill or tired. i did drift a while, not sleep, but my body's exhaustion and cold did take over and i felt like was weightless for some time. no complaints there, briefly i don't recall any pain, i was just blank aside from occasional chills and shivering. i don't know how long i was like this, but i was conscious the whole time, just quiet.

then i was able to eat and have even warmed up some (no chills for now). i don't get fevers during these chills -- my body temperature drops, often below 96 degrees. i've stopped asking why, no one knows, one of the medical mysteries of my illnesses. happens so often that i just burrow under heavy blankets and wear multiple layers for as long as it takes until my body warms to a tolerable level again (usually about 97). Sometimes this takes a few hours.

so i am grateful that there are a few ways to sit shikantaza.

sorry for the long message, just thought i'd share some of what goes on -- this is a regular part of my "normal" ..... i don't think i usualy share this part.

gassho, meian
st

[Kokuu]

this evening, when i realized i needed to rest and the chills took over, i remembered what Jundo said yesterday. i did recline position and thought of Buddha when they were ill or tired. i did drift a while, not sleep, but my body's exhaustion and cold did take over and i felt like was weightless for some time. no complaints there, briefly i don't recall any pain, i was just blank aside from occasional chills and shivering. i don't know how long i was like this, but i was conscious the whole time, just quiet.

then i was able to eat and have even warmed up some (no chills for now). i don't get fevers during these chills -- my body temperature drops, often below 96 degrees. i've stopped asking why, no one knows, one of the medical mysteries of my illnesses. happens so often that i just burrow under heavy blankets and wear multiple layers for as long as it takes until my body warms to a tolerable level again (usually about 97). Sometimes this takes a few hours.

so i am grateful that there are a few ways to sit shikantaza.

sorry for the long message, just thought i'd share some of what goes on -- this is a regular part of my "normal" ..... i don't think i usualy share this part.

Thank you, Meian.

I think it is good for people to read the parts of practice when things are not so pretty.


Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Heitou]

I have been studying Zen for three years, i studied Christianity for a few years before and have since denounced Christianity for Buddhism, but my studies of Buddhism has all been by myself with books nothing formal until now since I have found you guys, anyway here's my problem, I know that when you sit both knees should touch the ground and you place your feet in certain positions depending on the position that is used (lotus, half lotus etc.) or if you sit chair zazen both feet need to touch the ground. Ok my problem is I have a prosthetic leg so when I sit i take it off so that both knees touch the ground so I kind of sit Burmese style. My question is whether or not it's ok since I only have one foot and can't place two feet in the required positons, also i do not prefer to sit chair zazen at all it doesn't feel right to me although I do know that if I happen to go to a Center somewhere i will be forced to sit chair zazen since it would be rude for me to take my pants off to remove my prosthetic. What do you guys think?

Gassho
John
Sat today

[Jundo]

I have been studying Zen for three years, i studied Christianity for a few years before and have since denounced Christianity for Buddhism, but my studies of Buddhism has all been by myself with books nothing formal until now since I have found you guys, anyway here's my problem, I know that when you sit both knees should touch the ground and you place your feet in certain positions depending on the position that is used (lotus, half lotus etc.) or if you sit chair zazen both feet need to touch the ground. Ok my problem is I have a prosthetic leg so when I sit i take it off so that both knees touch the ground so I kind of sit Burmese style. My question is whether or not it's ok since I only have one foot and can't place two feet in the required positons, also i do not prefer to sit chair zazen at all it doesn't feel right to me although I do know that if I happen to go to a Center somewhere i will be forced to sit chair zazen since it would be rude for me to take my pants off to remove my prosthetic. What do you guys think?

Hi (would you mind signing a human first name, and eventually, putting a human face photo when you are comfortable to do so? It helps keep things a little bit more human around here. Write me if any question about that. Thank you.)

Our philosophy around here is that every "body" is different, and if you find a way to sit that basically feels balanced, comfortable and stable such that you can sit for extended times and not be obsessed with the body, then that is a good posture (or postures, as there may be more than one and at different times) for you. You need to experiment with your own body to find that balance, comfort and stability. If it feels uncomfortable, unstable or a persistent pain to do, then that ain't it.

Some Zen folks are rather obsessed with "right" and "one size fits all" posture, but not us.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Onka]

I have been studying Zen for three years, i studied Christianity for a few years before and have since denounced Christianity for Buddhism, but my studies of Buddhism has all been by myself with books nothing formal until now since I have found you guys, anyway here's my problem, I know that when you sit both knees should touch the ground and you place your feet in certain positions depending on the position that is used (lotus, half lotus etc.) or if you sit chair zazen both feet need to touch the ground. Ok my problem is I have a prosthetic leg so when I sit i take it off so that both knees touch the ground so I kind of sit Burmese style. My question is whether or not it's ok since I only have one foot and can't place two feet in the required positons, also i do not prefer to sit chair zazen at all it doesn't feel right to me although I do know that if I happen to go to a Center somewhere i will be forced to sit chair zazen since it would be rude for me to take my pants off to remove my prosthetic. What do you guys think?

Gassho
John
Sat today

Hi John
I just wanted to reinforce what Jundo said about sitting positions for Zazen.
My sitting is most often in a recliner chair or lying down on my bed, often shifting position regularly to alleviate pain.
Before finding Treeleaf I sat sporadically with a Sangha in the big smoke. The teacher there, like Jundo, emphasised sitting however you can. I tended to do Zazen wearing whatever I wore on my motorcycle to get there, others discreetly changed into comfortable clothing in a corner, outside, or in a storeroom. What I'm trying to say is that I would be disappointed if you found that visiting a Zendo was not a positive experience where removing your prosthetic was no big deal. Afterall you should sit how you need to.
You're in great company here comrade. Possibly one of the most inclusive environments I've been part of.
Be well.
Gassho
Onka
stlah

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