[Engaged] Negativity against engaged Buddhism?

[Hoseki]

Hoseki, yes. I am certainly not saying we should ignore the issues outside our hut. But, on the other hand I don't think we should all assume we subscribe to one way or philosophy/ideology about those issues. I do think it's a fine line between politics and what we DO or think about some of the current events in the world as Buddhists. But, portraying ourselves as liberal, or Marxist, or feminist, or socialist and then thinking that THOSE are inherently Buddhist is problematic.
If we take anything, say Feminism and look at it. Have women been suppressed over the centuries in numerous cultures around the globe? Of course yes. Should we, as Buddhists be concerned over this issue, and or take action? Yes! But do we take action as "Feminists" and create a separation with an us versus them mentality, or do we look at the issue of suppression of any kind with compassion. Do we then go against men? If we do we are just as bad as misogynists. Can we see with a Buddhist lens, that the suppressor and the suppressed are both suffering?

I would like to just share this going back to the issue of Engaged Buddhism. I really like what Thich Naht Hahn said here in one of the precept readings and I think it applies to the subject of engaged Buddhism and something to ponder.

"I know a man named Bac Sieu in Thua Thien Province in Vietnam, who has
been practicing generosity for fifty years; he is a living
//bodhisattva//. With only a bicycle, he visits villages of thirteen
provinces, bringing something for this family and something for that
family. When I met him in 1965, I was a little too proud of our School
of Youth for Social Service. We had begun to train three hundred
workers, including monks and nuns, to go out to rural villages to help
people rebuild homes and modernize local economies, health-care
systems, and education. Eventually we had ten thousand workers
throughout the country. As I was telling Bac Sieu about our projects,
I was looking at his bicycle and thinking that with a bicycle he could
help only a few people. But when the communists took over and closed
our School, Bac Sieu continued, because his way of working was
formless. Our orphanages, dispensaries, schools, and resettlement
centers were all shut down or taken by the government. Thousands of
our workers had to stop their work and hide. But Bac Sieu had nothing
to take. He was a truly a bodhisattva, working for the well-being of
others. I feel more humble now concerning the ways of practicing
generosity."

Gassho
Ishin
Sat/lah

Hi Ishin,

I think the labels can help but they need to be skillful means. So I use some of those labels to describe myself and at times I feel very strongly about them but at other times I see them as being aspects of me or even less (Buddhist is also a label!). Whether or not they are important depends on what I'm doing. Say I have blood type O (I actually don't know what is it) that's something I could say about myself and in some circumstances it would be important. Such as whether or not I could give blood to someone in need. At other times, it doesn't matter much at all like whether or not I should go to a party my friend is throwing. Its the same with the labels. If they are used as a kind of shorthand to provide information to others it can be helpful. Of course it could also go the other way and raise people's ire. But sometimes its the squeaky wheel that gets the grease other times the tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe so there are no guarantees.

If women didn't fight for the right to vote would it have happened? Maybe! But then again maybe not. I'm not confident that the arc of history bends toward justice. If Thich Naht Hahn had been successful then his organization would have helped a great number of people. But it failed because of the war so it didn't. I don't think that means organizations are bad or that we shouldn't try to bring about positive change on a large scale if that's something we can do. I actually think we need both approaches trying to influence structural change on a large scale as well as being compassionate and helpful on the small scale. But that's me and things feminism and Marxism are attractive because they look like (to me) useful sets of ideas for moving forward.

The last thing I don't think we can honestly say engaged Buddhism isn't Buddhism. If that was the case then Zen isn't Buddhism either because it has all that wacky Taoism mixed in there. At the end of the day there are multiple Buddhisms like branches on the same tree. If Engaged Buddhism doesn't jive for someone that' OK. It is what it is. If Engaged Buddhism is problematic for someone it might have to do with their values and what not. On the other side of the coin Engaged Buddhism really seems like the right way to go. Zen doesn't give us all the answers. Nothing does. We are always operating on incomplete and partial knowledge of the world. A wise man than me once said "when one side is illuminated the other side is dark."

I should add that for my own part I don't see these things are being separate. They are all combined in a kind of a mishmash that is this (my) life. So my practice influences my politics and vice versa. In much the same way that the influence of my parents growing up undoubtedly affect them as well. I think the distinctions are the result of us (people) try to cope with the world.

Anyway just my thoughts.

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday

[Ishin]

Sen

I wonder if you feel your response might have been different if you were a women on her own from an ethnic background?

In the UK in the 1970s people of colour were routinely abused by skinheads on a daily basis. At that point is taking offence in their heads?

As I said to Risho, some of us are privileged to be in a position where we can choose to be offended or not, rather than fearing for our safety.

It is great to feel compassion for those who have a mindset of persecuting others but let us not forget those who are persecuted even if we are not.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

As a martial artist and instructor of martial artists, I think it is completely different to defend oneself,physically if need be, and to do so with hatred in your art. If you are overcome with anger and hate, you have already lost. You can fight against injustice, oppression, bigotry, and hatred without letting yourself go down that road too.

Gassho
Ishin
Sat/lah

[Rich]

All anger is poison

Don’t react to anything, respond to the situation

Save all beings, that’s your true self

Just some thoughts while reading all the interesting stories

[emoji120]
Sat/lah


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[Kyōsen]

Sen

I wonder if you feel your response might have been different if you were a women on her own from an ethnic background?

In the UK in the 1970s people of colour were routinely abused by skinheads on a daily basis. At that point is taking offence in their heads?

As I said to Risho, some of us are privileged to be in a position where we can choose to be offended or not, rather than fearing for our safety.

It is great to feel compassion for those who have a mindset of persecuting others but let us not forget those who are persecuted even if we are not.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

A small detail that is sometimes forgotten about history is that the Nazis also rounded up queer individuals and put them away into labor camps and had them executed. I am very worried about the rise of right-wing extremism in my city (and my country) for reasons that are very close to home. I have faced some pretty ugly displays of homophobia: being spit on, chased in the street, beaten (my ugliest scar from this has faded quite a bit which I like to think is symbolic of how my mind has changed over time) and robbed, etc., so the concern of those who are targets of these kinds of extremist groups is one I share as I am a target of these extremist groups.

Even so, I have compassion for the people who would like to seriously harm my husband, myself, and our closest friends just for existing. I still think that if they were happy and wise they would not even think to harm people like us.

Gassho
Sen
Sat|LAH

[Ishin]

A small detail that is sometimes forgotten about history is that the Nazis also rounded up queer individuals and put them away into labor camps and had them executed. I am very worried about the rise of right-wing extremism in my city (and my country) for reasons that are very close to home. I have faced some pretty ugly displays of homophobia: being spit on, chased in the street, beaten (my ugliest scar from this has faded quite a bit which I like to think is symbolic of how my mind has changed over time) and robbed, etc., so the concern of those who are targets of these kinds of extremist groups is one I share as I am a target of these extremist groups.

Even so, I have compassion for the people who would like to seriously harm my husband, myself, and our closest friends just for existing. I still think that if they were happy and wise they would not even think to harm people like us.

Gassho
Sen
Sat|LAH

Sadly these attitudes still persist. I lost a client recently because I did not agree with her ideas about homosexuality. I will sit for all those persecuted for intrinsically being them.

Gassho
Sat/lah

[Doshin]

Sen, sorry for what you deal with.

Doshin
St

[Kyōsen]

Thank you for your kindness Isshin and Doshin

Although those experiences were unpleasant, they have been tremendous opportunities for me to learn and grow. I don't exactly regret they happened.

Gassho
Sen
Sat|LAH

[Jundo]

I would like to ask some caution on some words in this thread that might be taken as a criticism of Islam as a violent religion. I do not think that any religion ... including Buddhism ... escapes from having violence and extremist groups.

Kindly watch our language too. Like graffitti, empty lots filled with trash and broken windows, harsh speech with even a few "sh*ts" and "cr*ps" just brings down the peace and welcoming atmosphere of this place, like actual cr*p on the floor. I personally curse like a sailor when the time is right (I stubbed my toe yesterday, and I love the Koan that Buddha is an old shit stick), but there is a place and time for all things.

I will also insist, no matter our individual personal views (I certainly have my own personal views on all these matters, yes I do), that "good Buddhists" can still disagree on issues such as climate change, whether the government should be involved in providing health care, same-sex marriage, God, vegetarianism, Brexit, how to handle immigration, globalization and weak labor/environmental laws in places like China and the like, and still be "good Buddhists" if they sincerely believe that they are acting to benefit our fellow Sentient Beings, while seeking to be free of anger, violence and division. I feel that one can be a "liberal, or conservative or moderate or Marxist, or feminist, or socialist or anarchist" Buddhist, but one does not have to be a "liberal, or conservative or moderate or Marxist, or feminist, or socialist or anarchist" Buddhist, and we have to be a bit careful about imposing our personal political views on others in this Sangha ... where we basically come together to drop all separation and views before heading back out the door into samsara. I am glad that everyone seems to be discussing these issues in a civil tone without anger ... and I think that says a lot about our community.

Just as a side note, I would not allow any hate speech in this Sangha, except maybe once ... and then only to swiftly correct it (then offer Metta for the speaker's suffering). Fortunately, that rarely comes up around here. What is "hate speech"? Not so clear, but I know it when I hear it. For sure, certain critical comments about other religious groups, races, sexual identities and preferences would quickly be over the line. I once shut down some of our younger members calling things "retarded" or "Gay" around here because I work with some kids who actually are the former and know many good people who identify as the latter, and I think sometimes certain seemingly innocuous terms can be hurtful.

Although I do keep a less than iron hand on the wheel around here, please humor me and honor the above. Thank you.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - Some very good ideas above for future reading in the "no words" book club.

[Risho]

points taken

I think when I communicate I assume a lot but, as Kokuu pointed out, there is freedom of speech but we must be responsible; sometimes I assume responsibility but words can easily be weaponized; I know I have to be more conscious of that. Catching up on Realizing Genjokoan, chapter 2 talks just about that: taking personal responsibility as individuals that also impact tge community; I fall into the extreme of both sides just like he mentions! hahaha

I wonder if that’s what Dogen means with “ In seeing color and hearing sound with body and mind, although we perceive them intimately, [the perception] is not like reflections in a mirror or the moon in water. When one side is illuminated, the other is dark.”

gassho

rish
-stlah

[Meitou]

I would like to ask some caution on some words in this thread that might be taken as a criticism of Islam as a violent religion. I do not think that any religion ... including Buddhism ... escapes from having violence and extremist groups.

Kindly watch our language too. Like graffitti, empty lots filled with trash and broken windows, harsh speech with even a few "sh*ts" and "cr*ps" just brings down the peace and welcoming atmosphere of this place, like actual cr*p on the floor. I personally curse like a sailor when the time is right (I stubbed my toe yesterday, and I love the Koan that Buddha is an old shit stick), but there is a place and time for all things.

I will also insist, no matter our individual personal views (I certainly have my own personal views on all these matters, yes I do), that "good Buddhists" can still disagree on issues such as climate change, whether the government should be involved in providing health care, same-sex marriage, God, vegetarianism, Brexit, how to handle immigration, globalization and weak labor/environmental laws in places like China and the like, and still be "good Buddhists" if they sincerely believe that they are acting to benefit our fellow Sentient Beings, while seeking to be free of anger, violence and division. I feel that one can be a "liberal, or conservative or moderate or Marxist, or feminist, or socialist or anarchist" Buddhist, but one does not have to be a "liberal, or conservative or moderate or Marxist, or feminist, or socialist or anarchist" Buddhist, and we have to be a bit careful about imposing our personal political views on others in this Sangha ... where we basically come together to drop all separation and views before heading back out the door into samsara. I am glad that everyone seems to be discussing these issues in a civil tone without anger ... and I think that says a lot about our community.

Just as a side note, I would not allow any hate speech in this Sangha, except maybe once ... and then only to swiftly correct it (then offer Metta for the speaker's suffering). Fortunately, that rarely comes up around here. What is "hate speech"? Not so clear, but I know it when I hear it. For sure, certain critical comments about other religious groups, races, sexual identities and preferences would quickly be over the line. I once shut down some of our younger members calling things "retarded" or "Gay" around here because I work with some kids who actually are the former and know many good people who identify as the latter, and I think sometimes certain seemingly innocuous terms can be hurtful.

Although I do keep a less than iron hand on the wheel around here, please humor me and honor the above. Thank you.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - Some very good ideas above for future reading in the "no words" book club.

Thank you Jundo.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Sekishi]

I think when I communicate I assume a lot but, as Kokuu pointed out, there is freedom of speech but we must be responsible; sometimes I assume responsibility but words can easily be weaponized; I know I have to be more conscious of that. Catching up on Realizing Genjokoan, chapter 2 talks just about that: taking personal responsibility as individuals that also impact tge community; I fall into the extreme of both sides just like he mentions! hahaha

(I'm quoting Risho here, but this is more of a general observation on the topic.)

Our words, thoughts, and actions create future karmic conditions.

There are some different "views" on the specifics (particularly when it comes to rebirth and the like), but one widely accepted Buddhist understanding of karma (including in Zen) is that consciousness is seen as having eight aspects: the six senses (the usual five plus "thought"), the manas (the sense of "I am" or "the observer"), and "alaya" - the storehouse or "seed" consciousness. It is this storehouse / alaya that we work with during Ango with Thich Nhat Han's "Nurturing Seeds" practice. The basic idea is that our thoughts, speech, and actions take root as "seeds" which later bear "fruit" when activated by circumstances. By nurturing "positive" seeds (e.g. based on compassion, non-self, right view, etc.) right now, in this moment, they may bear "positive" fruit in the future.

I have spent a lifetime watering the seeds of self-blame, self-recrimination, and self-loathing. I can be sitting peacefully in the tub and remember "the cat needs an insulin injection". The thought is neutral (and with a positive intention -- care for the cat's diabetes), but thanks to all of the watering of negative seeds, by the time it arrives as a complete mental formation it is shaped more like "Hey useless moron, you forgot to medicate the cat." If I'm really determined, I can then spend a good 90 seconds spinning that out into a story about how utterly useless and lazy I am. This all waters the seeds of self-blame, self-recrimination, and self-loathing. Repeat this basic process 10,000 times over a lifetime and it is easy to see how we can unthinkingly go straight to familiar mental patterns when conditions arise.

I believe the same process occurs in more subtle ways. Most of us use language throughout our waking days, watering seeds that divide the world into "self" and "other", "good" and "evil", "beautiful" and "ugly" until we bare the fruit of believing that those things really truly ultimately exist.

Maybe that all sounds technical and woo (sorry), but in simpler terms: through repetition - thought, word, and act become habit. If we repeat kindness and compassion in our thoughts, words, and acts; these are a gift to our future selves (and all beings we encounter). When we encounter a difficult person or situation, we will be in the habit of kindness and compassion. So our practice is to make a habit of kindness and compassion in thoughts, words, and acts.

So kind speech is a sort of mind training and a gift to the world and our future self.

Just my $0.02.

Gassho,
Sekishi

[Sekishi]

There was a quote I wanted to use in my previous post that I couldn’t find. Finally found it...

It is from Ben Connelly (who gave a talk here at Treeleaf a few years back):

“If we cultivate beneficial mind-states, principally through being mindfully aware of them as they arise but also by thinking and talking about them, encouraging each other to cultivate them, we can transform the storehouse. Consciousness tends to create the same kinds of things it’s seen before. Seeds of peace grow peace, which plants seeds of peace.”

I see gentle speech not as piety or fake nicey-nice. I see it as one part mind training and one part acknowledgment of deep interconnectedness.

Again, just my $0.02. I’ll be quiet now.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat


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[Onka]

Gassho
Anna
stlah

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[Meitou]

There was a quote I wanted to use in my previous post that I couldn’t find. Finally found it...

It is from Ben Connelly (who gave a talk here at Treeleaf a few years back):

“If we cultivate beneficial mind-states, principally through being mindfully aware of them as they arise but also by thinking and talking about them, encouraging each other to cultivate them, we can transform the storehouse. Consciousness tends to create the same kinds of things it’s seen before. Seeds of peace grow peace, which plants seeds of peace.”

I see gentle speech not as piety or fake nicey-nice. I see it as one part mind training and one part acknowledgment of deep interconnectedness.

Again, just my $0.02. I’ll be quiet now.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat


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Some years ago, with another Sangha, I took part in a course on Non Violent Communication which showed participants how important both thoughtful speech and active listening are. What you are saying here directly relates to that Sekishi. Thanks.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

[Risho]

Sekishi droppin' the knowledge all over the place!!!! It's funny how right (well right imho ) this idea of storehouse consciousness is; it's a very astute observation by a culture in a pre-scientific era - now I'm assuming this came out of Yogacara or some school of thought prior to the scientific method. I would think storehouse consciousness would now be neural pathways, and the neural pathways can be reinforced by how we choose to let our reactions cause chain reactions in our thought; just like you are saying Sekishi. Edit and clarification because I may not know what I'm talking about here : I'm not a doctor, I just play one on the internet. lol

For example - something happens that's difficult, and we give up. Or we make promises to ourselves and we quit. Or politics come up, we get angry and shutdown. Or something difficult happens and our thoughts of shame and not being good enough start kicking off. These are all lies! Big, huge lies! Dr. Amen calls these Automatic Negative Thoughts (ANT's). These habits and pathways are our karma and can be changed - but we have to observe them and consciously decide not to allow these thoughts to overtake our consciousness - sowing new seeds (or constructing new pathways) is difficult but worth it. There is also a huge nutritional and physical aspect to all of this; it truly is all interconnected as the heart sutra says which, if you think about it, is pretty amazing that people came to these conclusions via practice.

Good stuff - thank you Sekishi!

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

PS - I'm sorry I keep responding to these; I tell myself not to respond, you don't need the last word all the time, but this discussion is just very compelling and my storehouse consciousness won't let me stop. hahahahah Seriously, thank you everyone for this discussion; it has transformed from my gripe to me learning quite a bit.