[Engaged] Negativity against engaged Buddhism?

[Kokuu]

Hi all

Given the current discussion and ongoing events in relation to climate change protests, I wonder if David Loy's book Ecodharma, published earlier this year, might be an interesting read for the book club? I imagine we have a range of opinions here. It would also fit well with Meitou's ECO-Life thread.

I wonder if he might he be persuaded to lead another Zazenkai and Q&A session on this topic?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Meitou]

Hi all

Given the current discussion and ongoing events in relation to climate change protests, I wonder if David Loy's book Ecodharma, published earlier this year, might be an interesting read for the book club? I imagine we have a range of opinions here. It would also fit well with Meitou's ECO-Life thread.

I wonder if he might he be persuaded to lead another Zazenkai and Q&A session on this topic?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

I'd be up for that.( I'm also hoping that at some point we read something about women practitioners - although I haven't started it yet, I'd love us to read Grace Schireson's Zen Women as a group,or something else that our women members might like to suggest.)
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

[Risho]

I'd be up for that.( I'm also hoping that at some point we read something about women practitioners - although I haven't started it yet, I'd love us to read Grace Schireson's Zen Women as a group,or something else that our women members might like to suggest.)
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

But Meitou - I can't stand women - ah crap I meant to send that in a private message. hahaha

Seriously I think this would be a fantastic choice!

I was just thinking about Iron Grindstone Liu and the ricecake seller (in the koan about where she asks the Diamond Sutra expert which mind he wants to nourish hunger for). In any case, I don't 'know a lot of female ancestors; that's a problem imho. I'd vote for this one.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Onka]

I think both suggestions above sound terrific.
Gassho
Anna
st

Sent from my Lenovo TB-8304F1 using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

I was just thinking about Iron Grindstone Liu and the ricecake seller (in the koan about where she asks the Diamond Sutra expert which mind he wants to nourish hunger for). In any case, I don't 'know a lot of female ancestors; that's a problem imho. I'd vote for this one.

Hi Risho

I can really recommend The Hidden Lamp by Florence Caplow and, friend of the sangha, Susan Moon.

It is a collection of one hundred koans about women which each have a commentary by a modern female teacher.

You might like this one about Satsujo...

A devout man took his young daughter Satsujo with him whenever he visited Master Hakuin Ekaku. Though only a child, Satsujo was devoted to practicing the dharma. When she was sixteen, her parents were concerned that she would not find a husband, and asked her to pray to Kannon, the bodhisattva of compassion. She did this day and night, during all of her activities. Before long she experienced an awakening. One day her father peeked into her room and saw her sitting on a copy of the Lotus Sutra.
“What are you doing, sitting on this precious scripture!” he shouted.
“How is this wonderful sutra different from my ass?” she replied.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Kokuu]

Oh, and the time that Satsujo left Hakuin speechless...

Master Hakuin explained a koan to his student, the young laywoman Satsujo. Then he asked her, "How do you understand this?"
She replied, "Would you please go over it again?"
As soon as he opened his mouth to speak, she put her hands to the floor and bowed.
"Thank you for your trouble," she said, and walked out, leaving Hakuin with his mouth open.
Hakuin exclaimed, "Oh dear! I've been trounced by this terrible little woman!"


Gassho
Kokuu

[Risho]

hahhahaahh

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Hoseki]

Maybe we are getting off the topic of engaged Buddhism in this thread, but I would just like to say that I have differing views on some things than Jundo; some political, some metaphysical,some personal. I am not a big fan of Sumo wrestling, and I think blackberry ice cream is the best flavor. I believe in rebirth, but I try not to act like a born again Buddhist. That being said, none of these things really make a difference when it comes to practice, and I have NEVER felt excluded here, or that my "uniqueness" was somehow making me feel ostracized. I sincerely feel that there has been a friendly attitude to those with various views. However, we are here to practice and study Zen. I do not come here to learn about US immigration policy or Brexit. If anything, in my opinion, when it comes to these issues maybe we ought to be discussing how we can embrace those we do not agree with. Offended Buddhists always seemed to me to be the epitome of an oxymoron.

Gassho
Ishin
Sat/lah

Hi Ishin,

If I could add something. Buddhists get offended like everyone else. I think the trick is to be offended and unoffended at the same time. If I can figure out how to do that I will let you know Probably involves more time on the cushion for me. The other thing I wanted to say is current events of which are a concern can be relevant. These things arouse strong feelings that we can try to see and work with. It can help us to understand the concerns of our peers and possibly motivate us to help people. That said, I think it can also have a chilling effect. Kind of like being a fan of a sports team and being surrounded by fans of the opposing team. Another example, would be yelling "God doesn't exist" in the Vatican. No one is going to do that. It can be a disconcerting when one feels strongly about an issue and they feel outnumbered by people who feel strongly in a way that excludes ones view. The atmosphere can cause people to self-censor. Does that make sense?

So Free Speech as Risho mentioned is a tricky subject and needs to be cashed out or defined clearly so we can see where the limits should be and what kind of limits there are. Basically, we can say what ever we want as long as that part of our bodies are mechanically sound. So its not free speech in an absolute sense because we can always do that. Were really concerned about consequences for speech. As I mentioned above and Kokuu also mentioned that some speech can have a chilling effect on the speech of others. For the Sangha to be inclusive we have to try and sort out the kind of thing that has a chilling effect. Contemporary overt politics is definitely one of them. So to me it makes sense to not bring it up much. That said, there are other things that would mostly likely cause a similar chilling effect like homophobia, transphobia, racism etc... So to create a welcoming space may require that we leave somethings at the door. If someone can't leave their racism at the door they aren't welcome (I feel this is a safe assumption.) But this means to be inclusive we have to be exclusive as well. It the old paradox of tolerance. This paradox can be resolved by changing the way we engage in that problem.

I would like to add one more thing. Anna mentioned that the personal is political. As I understand it, that phrase is from second wave feminism and just means that our personal lives are affected society at large. Kind of like the friends one has as children are often just the kids who lived next to us. Why did the Strang's live next to me? Just chance really. But those friendships helped shape who I became. So if a lot of people say a woman's place is in the kitchen that can have a damping effect women who might want to do something else with their lives (house work and child rearing can be grueling and thankless tasks. At the same time, if one depends on another for their sole material well being like a stay at home parent would rely on the income of their partner. It can really create a painful power dynamic. Put up with the domestic abuse or live on the street? What happens to the children if I leave? That kind of thing.)

Last thing I promise. When we are sitting Zazen we are just letting things come and go. But when we get off the cushion we are engaging and understand of what we encounter is the result of our history. Basically our upbringing, the mores and norms of the day, the books we've read, people we've met etc. Many of these things were in fact overt political issues at some point in history. They feel solid and eternal but they came into being and they will go out of being. So even when we feel we are being mostly harmless its possible we are upsetting others. Sort of like wearing a hat at the dinner table. I had an uncle who insisted we don't. In my house we couldn't care less. But it was a jarring experience to be told to take off my hat by someone I barely knew. He's my fathers brother but at this point I've only spent a few hours with him over the course of my life. So him being my uncle (and his house) he felt he could tell me what to do. But to me, he was practically a stranger so I didn't really care how he felt about this and because we didn't do that our my home I didn't really see the point. Maybe not the best example, but I think it highlights some of this.

What do you guys think? This is what makes sense to me but at the end of the day these are just the views of one person.


Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday

[Ishin]

Hoseki, yes. I am certainly not saying we should ignore the issues outside our hut. But, on the other hand I don't think we should all assume we subscribe to one way or philosophy/ideology about those issues. I do think it's a fine line between politics and what we DO or think about some of the current events in the world as Buddhists. But, portraying ourselves as liberal, or Marxist, or feminist, or socialist and then thinking that THOSE are inherently Buddhist is problematic.
If we take anything, say Feminism and look at it. Have women been suppressed over the centuries in numerous cultures around the globe? Of course yes. Should we, as Buddhists be concerned over this issue, and or take action? Yes! But do we take action as "Feminists" and create a separation with an us versus them mentality, or do we look at the issue of suppression of any kind with compassion. Do we then go against men? If we do we are just as bad as misogynists. Can we see with a Buddhist lens, that the suppressor and the suppressed are both suffering?

I would like to just share this going back to the issue of Engaged Buddhism. I really like what Thich Naht Hahn said here in one of the precept readings and I think it applies to the subject of engaged Buddhism and something to ponder.

"I know a man named Bac Sieu in Thua Thien Province in Vietnam, who has
been practicing generosity for fifty years; he is a living
//bodhisattva//. With only a bicycle, he visits villages of thirteen
provinces, bringing something for this family and something for that
family. When I met him in 1965, I was a little too proud of our School
of Youth for Social Service. We had begun to train three hundred
workers, including monks and nuns, to go out to rural villages to help
people rebuild homes and modernize local economies, health-care
systems, and education. Eventually we had ten thousand workers
throughout the country. As I was telling Bac Sieu about our projects,
I was looking at his bicycle and thinking that with a bicycle he could
help only a few people. But when the communists took over and closed
our School, Bac Sieu continued, because his way of working was
formless. Our orphanages, dispensaries, schools, and resettlement
centers were all shut down or taken by the government. Thousands of
our workers had to stop their work and hide. But Bac Sieu had nothing
to take. He was a truly a bodhisattva, working for the well-being of
others. I feel more humble now concerning the ways of practicing
generosity."

Gassho
Ishin
Sat/lah

[Risho]

First I have to qualify that I really believe my stories a lot - it's kind of funny. But in the end, just sit; I need to follow that advice. hahha

Second even though I believe I'm "right" I quickly adjust when I see I'm being myopic, etc. I think that's something that my practice has helped me with. Things I take for granted just aren't so.

I don't really care about hurting people's feelings or being nice. I mean I do, but if something needs to said, I'm not walking on egg shells; I expect the same from everyone here with me. Sometimes truth hurts. It's not my place to hurt - but I expect people to shoot straight with me and I do the same. I don't like soft talk, and I'm not sensitive; in any case, hate speech is not that - or any of the isms or phobias etc. It's beyond - it's dehumanizing, etc.

At the same time, there should be no hurting; we need to be able to talk respectfully; I know I sometimes lapse in that regard especially when I get on a soapbox.

All these big issues and things we believe in here are important - again we need to extend metta and extend an ear and open heart to those people who may see things differently, and to me I need to be extra open to people I don't agree with. Now we also need to double down on Nazis - if you pay attention to the metta verses, Nazis probably need compassion more than anyone; of course, of course we shut that crap down. That goes without saying literally; it doesn't need virtue signalling or vocalization because it's so obvious.

With engaged buddhism, I think engaged is extra; if you are practicing ZEn you are already engaged in teh world and that informs your view and transforms your view. To me adding engaged is extra - but that is just my humble opinion; I appreciate and respect other opinions on that matter.

I just don't like the left-leaning tilt inherent here and in Buddhism; I also don't want a right-leaning tilt. But I bet if I wanted to bring up a charity around Buddhists for Paleo/Carnivore Nutrition, I'd get heat because it doesn't not adhere to accepted Buddhist bullshit (excuse my language ). And it shouldn't be done here; I'm not saying it should - I have opinions on nutrition and many things, but that isn't the purpose of being here at Treeleaf.

But, and I do this for sure - we all do this, people creating a mental image in their heads of what a good Buddhist is, then trying to live through that image. But that is ass backward. Sure I've done that - that's how we learn, but we need to do better. Also, Jundo is awesome - but we gotta stop trying to live up to his ideal - actually what we think his ideal is; he's not espousing an ideal on us; we do that shit to ourselves; it's another bs mind game.

If we disagree we need to openly discuss it because that will truly deepen our practice. I really do nto care about being right; I want to be true. Sometimes that means learning from others; sometimes it means teaching; let's be open to both.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Kyōsen]

On Being Offended: My dad once said to me "being offended is a choice". I think if we closely examine our minds when it encounters something we consider to be offensive we might see that there is a degree of choice being made there, but perhaps we miss seeing that because of the initial shock of emotion we feel when something offensive comes along.

Speaking for myself: It's almost as though a part of me believes that in choosing to be offended I get some kind of energy to right a perceived wrong. I agree to be outraged so that I can have the energy of anger at my disposal. This is different from having a disagreement with someone, this is about rousing one's self to action whether in thought, speech, or actions.

I found that most of the things I was offended by were things I couldn't do anything about. They either happened far away or over the internet or a long time ago. So there wasn't much use for that anger - I couldn't accomplish anything immediately with it. Instead I found it better to shift from outrage to a kind of regretful compassion. Regret for the person doing the thing that I thought was mistaken - because I could see they were trapped in a kind of misguided or incorrect way of seeing things, and that was causing them to suffer and in their suffering they were causing more people to suffer. Compassion, of course, for their suffering and the suffering they were causing to others.

Over the summer I saw some guys putting up a poster downtown for a neo-Nazi group. As my husband and I walked by I whispered to him, "On our way back we're going to have to take that poster down." At the time, I didn't feel angry about the poster or the attempt to recruit locals to a violent extremist group - I felt regret that there are people in my city who feel so alienated and lost that they think their only resort is extremism. I cultivate compassion for them, wishing for them to be free and happy.

So I think the feeling of being offended is a mis-fire of the mind. It's good to recognize when something wrong has happened - when someone has said or done something harmful and damaging - but how we choose to respond to that wrong is very important. I'm sure some would think that there is a kind of "righteous anger" that can be used in the service of compassion, and it's said that Bodhisattvas are able to cultivate and use this kind of wisdom-anger, but I'm not so confident that it's a good thing for us deluded beings to try to cultivate on purpose; I'm not sure we have the wisdom to make good use of such wisdom-anger, so I think shifting our reaction toward compassion is better for ourselves and others and, done correctly, compassion should give us a lot of energy and free us from limiting fears as well. Compassion asks us to be brave, after all.

Can we see with a Buddhist lens, that the suppressor and the suppressed are both suffering?

This is very important! It's sometimes said that no one can send you to the Hell Realms - the worst someone else can do to you is take your life (although I don't exactly agree with that), so it's only you who can send yourself to Hell (whether or not you believe in a literal or metaphorical hell is another matter). I think it's important that we are able to cultivate compassion for oppressors as well as those they oppress. Those who commit horrible acts are doing incredible harm to themselves and their societies, their minds are full of hate and anger and ignorance and if they were free from all that garbage then they would be happy and wouldn't harm anyone. So it's important that we try to wish for them to be happy and free.

This doesn't mean we ignore their actions or let them go consequence-free into the world. People like that need to face what they've done and need to work to remedy the harm as best they can, to work on the mind and its contents to root out the causes and conditions for what they did, and to pay some kind of penance or reparation to society which was harmed. Letting people go with no consequence is doing them further harm, training them to think they can do whatever they want and there'll be no problem.

So it's important for us to see that even the oppressors are suffering, because they are.

There's a story in the Jataka Tales wherein the Buddha in a past life was a captain on a ship that was boarded by a pirate who was going to kill everyone and take their jewels and money. The Buddha killed the pirate with the thought of saving the people on the ship from being murdered, and of saving the pirate from committing such a horrendous act. I don't think we're supposed to literally believe this happened; I think the important thing is the idea of having concern for the well-being of those who have done harm or would do harm to others.

Gassho
Sen
Sat|LAH

[Kyonin]

Hi Tyler,

I may be totally wrong but I think Buddhism is a spiritual practice that promotes compassion. And that means to help other sentient beings.

Mahayana goes even further teaching us the way of the bodhisattva, who is a being that puts aside her own benefit in order to save all beings from dukkha. So our duty is to help others, beyond political or social comment.

We vow to save all sentient beings one instant at a time.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Risho]

Sen that was fantastic - absolutely fantastic

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Kokuu]

Over the summer I saw some guys putting up a poster downtown for a neo-Nazi group. As my husband and I walked by I whispered to him, "On our way back we're going to have to take that poster down." At the time, I didn't feel angry about the poster or the attempt to recruit locals to a violent extremist group - I felt regret that there are people in my city who feel so alienated and lost that they think their only resort is extremism. I cultivate compassion for them, wishing for them to be free and happy.

Sen

I wonder if you feel your response might have been different if you were a women on her own from an ethnic background?

In the UK in the 1970s people of colour were routinely abused by skinheads on a daily basis. At that point is taking offence in their heads?

As I said to Risho, some of us are privileged to be in a position where we can choose to be offended or not, rather than fearing for our safety.

It is great to feel compassion for those who have a mindset of persecuting others but let us not forget those who are persecuted even if we are not.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Risho]

As I said to Risho, some of us are privileged to be in a position where we can choose to be offended or not, rather than fearing for our safety.

We all have a choice to how we react. Or maybe we cannot control our reactions, but we all have a choice if we are going to be led by them or not.

I mean if we take Islamophobia. In his book, The End of Faith, Sam Harris cites a scientific poll which got a percentage of Muslims who supported or participated in Jihad - you know the killing of infidel Westerners. Interestingly, 25% supported. This wasn't some Twitter poll either. This was a scientific poll; this was legit. Also keep in mind that it didn't include known hotbed countries for terrorism (e.g. I think Lebanon was excluded).

So 25% - we are talking 350 million Muslims - out of 1.25 billion worldwide.

Think about that - how many white nationalists are there? Nazi gets thrown out a lot - but 350 millions is the population of the United States.

So when people get concerned about Muslim terrorists, specifically "White privileged" people, it's racist or Islamophobic. I'd say it's actually quite justified.

Now I'm not saying people should act on their fear and anger; I believe we (and this is what being human is) control our emotion and reactions; but that fear is justified.

And this is an example of left leaning - always ethnic minorities (in the US) are viewed as victims but the reality is that racism is not under the purview of White people; racism is human-wide.

Racism against anyone is bull; racism against White people is not reverse racism. It's racism.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah