Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday
Hoseki
Sattoday
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Some very good examples of being an "Engaged" Buddhist in the following, and how the specifics of that may vary from heart to heart ...
Yes, our Precepts guide us to avoid violence and the killing of sentient beings. Thus, generally, we abhor war and any need for violence, especially if taken in anger. But here, things may become tricky (unless, as in any religion, the preacher or faithful follower makes it one way or hell. Personally, I believe that good and sincere Buddhists can disagree on some things while remaining good Buddhists.) So, genocide, use of chemical weapons on children, torture, raping and pillaging ... I just cannot see how any Buddhist, anywhere or any time, could support such things and remain within the Precepts, and I would easily declare so "from the pulpit" (the only exception might be, for example, possibly something like torture of a prisoner if truly thought a last resort necessary to save innocent lives ... and even then, it turns the stomach.) On the other hand, some Buddhists might sadly support a particular war, with tears in their eyes, because felt necessary to save lives overall, and protect peaceful society, rescue victims of genocide, etc. Even then, one must feel the regret and sadness of needing to do so. Our Precept studies in preparation for Jukai flesh out these Precepts and explore such ambiguities down here in Samsara (this imperfect, day to day life and world filled with competing questions).
I am reminded of my friend, a police officer and Buddhist, who killed a hostage taker in a fully justified shooting in order to rescue a child held captive. The shooting may have been right and necessary, and he knew that he did what needed to be done ... yet somehow carried the Karma and weight of that taking of a human life in his heart for the rest of his own life.
Yes, this is a kind of naive or foolish compassion that seeks to do the right thing, yet does not look at the real effects or real social or economic causes of a problem. I am reminded of this case too ...
Why Buddhist ‘fangsheng’ mercy release rituals can be more cruel than kind
The case of two London Buddhists fined for releasing crustaceans into the sea has thrown the spotlight on a ritual that involves hundreds of millions of wild animals – and a huge industry built around their capture and supply
Oh, I am a marcher too! I have marched in various demonstrations, and I was one of those "Chad counting" poll watching volunteers during the infamous Bush-Gore election recount in Florida. I have marched for peace, against genocide, signed petitions, engaged in a "sit-in." I have sometimes worn my robes at such an event. I have given talks here where I encourage folks to vote in elections. However, I do so ... personally ... and do not insist that every member of the Sangha fully agree with a particular stance, or support the particular candidate I support. (The only exception I would feel comfortable in making is to say clearly "from the pulpit" to never vote for a Neo-Nazi or like candidate who stands for hate and division, and also to encourage folks to vote for a generic candidate who they feel stands for peace, charity, tolerance and such values in general.) However, I hope that many people get up from the Zafu, get off their asses, and get marching and volunteering for peace, for the environment, to protect children and the poor etc. as they feel best! Get moving!
I once did the following, and it got people very upset. I have very strong feelings about the person on the Altar here, but my point is that we need to use such strong feelings as a Koan to step beyond too. In Zen we can have strong feelings and opinions but ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY step beyond all feelings and opinions AT ONCE!
Treeleaf Weekly Zazenkai - Welcoming Trump Buddha
ATTENTION: Our Zazenkai today replaces our usual wooden Buddha statue on the Altar with Donald Trump Buddha. This is not a political statement (except as some philosophers say that all things are politics). Rather, it is a call to look beyond the politics, me vs. you, us vs. them, likes and dislikes, left vs. right, loves and hates, anger and argument that may be engendered in so many of us by politics today. In our sitting, we sit as the still and whole source of all that, found beyond yet right at the heart of all the division and chaos of the world, known when our heart is still and whole.
Gassho, J
STLah
Thank you Jundo, and everyone else!
Gassho,
Tyler
SatTodayComment
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First of all, I think I was posting my concerns about "Engaged Buddhism" in the wrong thread. lol
1. I also want to first apologize for offending anyone here; that is absolutely not my intent. I know I can get on a soapbox, and sometimes I do get crabby and pissy. I'm sorry for that.
It's hard to convey tone in text sometimes; couple that with my sarcasm and dry sense of humor and it can sound like an attack. Please do not read it as such.
2. Also, I'm not saying I'm right, everyone else who believes otherwise is wrong. BUT, BUT!!!
We have to be able to talk openly and honestly here. I'm also a part of this forum, so I need to be able to express myself without fear of reprisal, just as you deserve that same respect, even if we disagree. But we are still here practicing together in "The Way". I mean that; taking Jukai links us together as a Sangha.
Sometimes, these types of discussions can bring up emotions, and I want to make sure I avoid that as much as possible because I want an honest an open discussion. I really, really do.
3. Finally, just because Jundo is our teacher does not mean we always have to agree with him. I may not agree with him. Again, I could be wrong or short-sighted. I mean the amount of practice I've done (and I know I'm not supposed to be comparing) is a drop in the ocean compared to his decades. And not just Jundo; to Jakuden's point, I haven't spent any time in a monastery. I'm a purely lay practitioner, and that's how I intend to keep my practice going, in the marketplace so to speak - for better or for worse.
That being said - we also have to avoid wanting to constantly seek "Roshi's approval". I think Roshi would rather we be free thinkers than always toe the company line.. of course unless that is a harmful path. But otherwise, we are all adults here and we can disagree on things.
I mean - keep in mind Buddhism comes from cultures where the teacher is revered as a saint and not to be questioned. In Japan, for example, there's the saying that the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. That group-think mentality is not something I'm a fan of; funny Jakuden brought up a beehive example in a monastery; this wasn't her intent, but I'm no Borg - or part of a hive mind. Also, I am a nail that sticks out, and you are going to need a big hammer. lol
Seriously - we should all be here to be free thinkers; sometimes that disrupts the comfort zone and challenges pre-conceived notions, but that's a big part of practice. Iconoclasts have always been a vital part of Zen; they are the Manjushri to the more syrupy Kannon. Both are necessary, and I fall more on the brass tacks, brash side of things; I can't stand saccharine platitudes of peace and grace. Life is messy, not simple.
4. So please, just do me the favor of hearing me out without judging me as I will be stating my case without attacking you. That's all I ask.
The only way I or any of us can learn is if we are able to communicate where we are now; if we get attacked instead of educated, then we never grow and get better. And believe me, and I've said this elsewhere, I have nothing but growth that I need. I know I don't know everything. I'm sincerely coming to you with my current feelings about stuff.
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Ok so I am not a climate change denier. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, and I'm not a crazy conservative. I'm pretty moderate in my beliefs. I belief healthcare should be a right, but I'm also concerned about making it government funded because government funded programs in the us aren't run well; they grow in cost and start lacking value. And when you kill competition, you may no longer attract the best and the brightest but just some that want to collect a paycheck; now that being said, that's the case now, and I've met medical doctors who I couldn't believe were doctors. Obviously there are lots of good ones. But there are some who just write prescriptions without actually doing root cause analysis - pubmed.gov people! Yes, I'm a difficult patient because I ask a lot of questions, and I basically come into a doctor interviewing them for a job to take care of my health; I ask for a lot considering the medical cost. hahahah
I don't believe we should be sucking off the government's teet; the government serves the people; they should not be treated as some elite thinking party that knows better and can solve our problems, but they need to set up the marketplace, infrastructure and military to protect and allow individual citizens to organize and solve problems.
My main point is this - and I want to more eloquently express it - well I have a couple of points:
There are some themes in Western Buddhist circles that certain things are "enlightened living" or "enlightened activity". For example, the idea that being vegetarian or vegan is "simpler" or somehow "healthier"/"more healthful" for humans and "less impactful" to the planet. These are wrapped up in assumptions; but I have evidence to the contrary.
At the same time!
If you are a vegan or vegetarian and that is part of your zen practice I don't care; I'm 100% not against you or would I ever tell you to stop what you are doing. I know it sounds contradictory.
I'm saying that that is completely outside of the scope of Zen. The idea that vegetarianism is more Buddhist is nonsense, but that is the underlying thread that goes around.
Also - the idea of saving the planet. Holy shit - I want to save the planet too! I mean Kokuu - holy crap - I forgot you were a scientist in this regard; I know you can tell me what for, and that's what I need to hear. I want to hear real ways we can do stuff.
How about that company in Europe (I think Norway can't remember) who invented a means of cleaning up plastics in the ocean; that is incredible and something that really concerns me -- talking about concern! Seriously - that relieved a huge weight from my mind. I think about it all the time. I just don't know what to do about it - well I try not to buy plastic - but it doesn't mean that should be part of Zen.
Ok anyway - so also climate change and CO2 emission. So George Bush or Trump whomever gets blamed, and it may be justifiable. But here's the thing. The US gets a lot of heat for shit that it's not fully responsible for. Now this is my opinion - and I'm open to correction - so I'm not here waving a placard angrily. just hear me out.
So the reason the US doesn't want to impose more regulation is that even if we do, it incurs significant financial cost, which reduces our ability to compete in the marketplace - where we are significantly hindered already because of our cost to deliver goods and services vs China; further, the main reason is that if countries like China don't do anything or adhere to regulations, we are basically taking ourselves out of being a viable competitor on the world market when they need to do something. Change on our side would be minimal. China needs to step up their game. They literally have the vast majority of humans on the planet. We can be an example, but China doesn't care about that. They do their own thing; they care about their people's interest, just as we do.
But BUT!!! we are responsible because we allowed China (and this was Clinton but political parties don't matter - just let's keep it honest, all world leaders are in the real world and do shady shit - not just the hated republicans) into the World Trade Organization. We did that so we could offshore all the costs (economic and environemntal) labor without having to worry about the pesky cost of labor regulations and EPA concerns.
China doesn't impose those. So they make tons of our stuff on demand, at low cost, without worrying about people or the planet. So we are not innocent. The average age of a laborer in CHina is like 15; there are 12 year olds in sweatshops making our shit. They have labor camps and censorship, etc. So heres' the deal with that - sorry but I know pure Capitalism is horrendous too, but so are communist socialist governments. Someone always brings out how it works in a remote country with 50k citizens in a place I've never heard of but in real practice Communism is usually run by tyrannical despots. It's not good, and the revolutions are bloody. That's another topic, but Socialism also seems to be part of teh Buddhist Zeitgeist in America, I figured I'd throw it out there. lol
SO anyway - back to China - we need to stop trade with them or get them to also actually implement the same regulations, and then bite the bullet at a $5000 iPhone.
And ultimately - we need to do stuff that causes less harm; in that I agree. I just disagree with mixing this in with Zen, and I'm tired of the agendas and all the preconceived assumptions about which agendas will be served.
Zen should be big enough for us all to practice here without fear of reprisal from following some ideology. That's really it.
I'm glad everyone backs something - just keep in mind when you post stuff like this is less harmful, etc. Ask yourself less harmful to whom?
Gassho
Risho
-stlahLast edited by Risho; 10-27-2019, 12:32 PM.Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.comComment
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Hi,
I am a contrarian by nature. I appreciate different points of view and particularly minority views. This allows for a better chance of the whole truth being appreciated. I appreciate all that Risho has to say.
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__Comment
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I think this is very true, Risho, and Zen does cut itself off from whole groups of people if in the west Buddhist ethics are equated with so-called progressive politics. This has been an issue with 'Buddhist modernism' in which a certain flavour of Buddhism is seen as the norm or standard.Zen should be big enough for us all to practice here without fear of reprisal from following some ideology. That's really it
As you say there are arguments for and against government-run healthcare (as someone living in a country with socialised healthcare I have my own views but they may not apply to a different place) and regulating environmental impacts has an effect on short-term economic trade which can mean real people lose their jobs.
It is perhaps understandable that Zen and Buddhism in the west tends to attract more hippy types who are keen on caring/sharing approaches but someone can also come from a conservative viewpoint of self-responsibility and the importance of being tough on crime and not lack compassion. As a parent I know that love and compassion has to feature sticks as well as carrots.
Very few people want uncontrolled immigration and very few want absolutely no immigration whatsoever. The difference is where our priorities are and where we draw the line. It is similar with spending on the military, welfare payments, criminal sentencing etc. I imagine that most people would love to see a world in which we don't need an army to protect us yet know that leaving any country defenceless is a very very bad idea in practice.
I hope at Treeleaf that we exclude no one for their political stance (although I think we should draw the line at racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia etc which are themselves exclusive). Your practice is your practice and if it is done with compassionate intent then all is well although we may have spirited arguments over the details!
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-Last edited by Kokuu; 10-27-2019, 01:30 PM.Comment
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As regards being contrary, this can be useful if it allows different views to be heard.
However, it is also worth bearing in mind that reflexively always agreeing or always disagreeing with a position are basically two sides of the same coin, depending on whether you want to be approved of or seen as an outsider, and seeking to provoke harmony or conflict for one's own ends.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-Comment
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Yes wise words Kokuu!
Risho, the reason I recommended a Zen Retreat was most definitely not to imply lay practice as inferior. It is just that it is a better answer to "What is Zen" then can easily be given here on a forum. Yes in some ways it is Borg-like! And if there is resistance to dropping our individual identity and views, then that is a place to practice. That's an important aspect of Zen.
But I meant it when I said I often have similar dialogue in my head to what you wrote. When it comes up though, I am learning to question the motive. Am I not liking what this teacher is saying because I think he/she is preaching and it rubs me the wrong way? Is it because I am attached to my own views and/or my perceived identity? Or is it truly in the spirit of Right Intention, that I have a different view that I feel is important to promote on behalf of other beings? If that is the case, then I agree that we should be totally free to express and discuss it within the Zen context. And I too sometimes feel that those views do not get heard. Zen is an institution and the wheels turn slowly. Inclusiveness of views is more progressive in Zen than many other institutions, but there are some viewpoints that it still resists hearing, IMHO out of an existential fear of "not being Zen anymore." I hope that anyone here who feels that their views need to be heard for the benefits of others can express them and get heard. I am certainly open to arguments on all sides of most issues (and I am also a Scientist, so I tend to go with anything that has the facts behind it). I am grateful for your willingness to think outside of the box, and those of us that do (that just don't fit into the box!) need to speak up, even if we get pushback sometimes.
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAHComment
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I really love this discussion; Kokuu and Jakuden -- precisely! I come from a different perspective about monastic vs. lay - again just differences of opinion, not right or wrong, and I'm wrong mostly so I may change. hahah
I think the foundation of an enlightened society is free speech. I also think in Dogen's time a monastic setting was necessary because the "outer" world was too chaotic with all the warring going on - rogue samurai and so on. I mean medieval times were not all turkey thighs and jousting contests. hahah
That being said - I think the reason why Treeleaf is so awesome - is that in our "outer" world, there is chaos, but it's in more of the intellectual realm hopefully and at least for us in the Western World; it's a war of words. The political spectrum is like a bell curve; most people fall in the middle and are moderates, like myself (believe it or not I'm not conservative, but I'm probably more conservative than some); in any case, the most vociferous of people on the internets (and especially the toxic social media sites) are extreme left or right; so it appears that everything is in chaos. So I would say to me the role of Sangha in our day and age is to allow that open forum of dialogue - we can all express our crazy views and truly grow. I mean I don't know anywhere else on the internet (or even a dinner table) where we can do that. It's incredible.
I think inclusivity is such an interesting topic too. I feel like we are focused as a society on inclusivity of race, gender, etc, but we need to also be focused on inclusivity of thought. Instead of censoring and prohibiting certain language (like in Communist states), allow all language to be expressed - and especially the language that is crazy - haters are gonna hate, but when that hate language sees the light of reason - people will choose to follow the correct way - naturally people know what is right; they don't need to be policed by a government elite that thinks it knows better. That is dangerous - when we treat people who we perceive are wronged by society as victims, this too is a trap. We are well meaning, but elitism is a slippery and dangerous slope.
But speaking of inclusivity - exclusivity is also important; if it weren't, there wouldn't be Unsui and Lay and Preists and Transmitted - it's because reality is what it is that we have those things.
I'd much rather have transmission be excluded to those who are deserving; simultaneously everyone needs to be included in the ability to try to be a priest, etc. and should not be prevented from that path based on anything - well unless they want to hate, etc.
Anyhow - thank you guys.
Gassho
Risho
-stlahEmail: risho.treeleaf@gmail.comComment
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I wish this were true, Risho, but the evidence I have seen in terms of research suggests the opposite in that people who engage in hate tend to keep their views to themselves when it is not tolerated by society. However, when it is legitimised through social media platforms, political debate and the language of our politicians, this causes a rise in the level of hate in society in general who feel emboldened and part of the norm.Instead of censoring and prohibiting certain language (like in Communist states), allow all language to be expressed - and especially the language that is crazy - haters are gonna hate, but when that hate language sees the light of reason - people will choose to follow the correct way - naturally people know what is right; they don't need to be policed by a government elite that thinks it knows better. That is dangerous - when we treat people who we perceive are wronged by society as victims, this too is a trap.
This is, as I say, what I believe to be true from the evidence but you or others may know of contrary research.
As with political stances, most people believe that there is a limit to free speech in terms of what can be said without consequence but have different places where they put the limits.
The far-right likes to talk about free speech but part of that is a justification in allowing both hate speech and the ability to bully other viewpoints out of what they like to call 'the marketplace of ideas'. However, the left is also guilty of no-platforming people who have legitimate points to make.
There is also the point that allowing free speech does not affect everyone equally. As older white dudes born in rich countries, we are not likely to be targeted with hate speech or affected by it. Anti-immigrant speech in the UK has, however, made life incredibly uncomfortable for a number of migrant communities just as speech of a racist, homophobic, transphobic etc nature will affect those minorities. For me there has to be a balance between allowing people to say what they want and leaving people vulnerable. Just because people like me have little to fear from 'free speech' (which sadly sometimes is little more than a seemingly philosophically sounding rationale for engaging in abusive language), that is not true across the board.
People also differ in their susceptibility to speech which seeks to cause religious, racial or other divisions and it is well known that groups such as ISIS and other terror organisations seek out vulnerable people who already feel ostracised by society for recruitment purposes. Younger people are also often seduced by idealistic sounding causes and struggles coupled with a lack of the ability to understand the precise consequences of what they are being drawn into. In these cases, there is potentially a role for protecting them against certain modes of speech seeking to arouse hatred.
I am not in any way saying that I know where the free speech line should be drawn but just putting a few arguments against why there should be limits controlled by law rather than a free-for-all which is not conducted on a level playing field. Sometimes government does know better as it is in contact with policing organisations who can see the real life consequences of allowing certain forms of speech. However, I can also understand the fear of allowing governments to decide where to set the limits as that is open to being guided by their own political philosophy rather than evidenced-based policy.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-Last edited by Kokuu; 10-27-2019, 04:06 PM.Comment
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Those are damned good points Kokuu - really damned good. But I take exception to old white dudes - speak for yourself!!! ahahah
Gassho
Risho
-stlahEmail: risho.treeleaf@gmail.comComment
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Nicely said, Kokuu and Jakudan. You have my approval and agreement.
I hope at Treeleaf that we exclude no one for their political stance (although I think we should draw the line at racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia etc which are themselves exclusive). Your practice is your practice and if it is done with compassionate intent then all is well although we may have spirited arguments over the details!Gassho, J... I hope that anyone here who feels that their views need to be heard for the benefits of others can express them and get heard. I am certainly open to arguments on all sides of most issues (and I am also a Scientist, so I tend to go with anything that has the facts behind it). I am grateful for your willingness to think outside of the box, and those of us that do (that just don't fit into the box!) need to speak up, even if we get pushback sometimes.
STLah
PS - Maybe one note on Kokuu's comment
"This has been an issue with 'Buddhist modernism' in which a certain flavour of Buddhism is seen as the norm or standard."
That get's a bit tricky, because while there is room for folks to practice a variety of practices and paths that speak to their own heart (e.g., those who practice Zen with or without Christianity or Amida Buddha or vegetarianism or Tonglen) ... at the same time, a Sangha will tend to have a certain style, with the thought that others have other places to practice other styles. So, for example, we practice Shikantaza here in the Soto way, not really in the Rinzai "Koan Introspection Zazen" way or Tibetan or Pure Land way, and I am unabashedly a "Buddhist modernist" who tries to keep the flavor here rather down to earth and coherent in light of modern ideas of lay practice (vs. primarily monastic practice), sexual equality and identity, and a openness to skepticism on ideas of literal rebirth and some of our other wilder legends and beliefs. Even then, on topics such as literal rebirth, I try to maintain a flavor here of "it could be" agnostic skepticism and not shut any doors one way or the other.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Hi JundoI am unabashedly a "Buddhist modernist" who tries to keep the flavor here rather down to earth and coherent in light of modern ideas of lay practice (vs. primarily monastic practice), sexual equality and identity, and a openness to skepticism on ideas of literal rebirth and some of our other wilder legends and beliefs
I did not mean to suggest that all aspects of Buddhist modernism are bad or to be avoided, just that there is a concern that one approach becomes seen as the true form of western Buddhism to the exclusion of other flavours as has happened to some extent with the insight meditation tradition and school in north America.
As long as there continues to be sanghas which practice with different styles, this is a good thing. If they all start to have the same politics or view of practice, there is not that diversity to accommodate folk with differing perspectives. That is not to say that we need to agree with everything about a sangha or teacher but it is nice if it feels like home.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-Comment
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Maybe we are getting off the topic of engaged Buddhism in this thread, but I would just like to say that I have differing views on some things than Jundo; some political, some metaphysical,some personal. I am not a big fan of Sumo wrestling, and I think blackberry ice cream is the best flavor. I believe in rebirth, but I try not to act like a born again Buddhist. That being said, none of these things really make a difference when it comes to practice, and I have NEVER felt excluded here, or that my "uniqueness" was somehow making me feel ostracized. I sincerely feel that there has been a friendly attitude to those with various views. However, we are here to practice and study Zen. I do not come here to learn about US immigration policy or Brexit. If anything, in my opinion
, when it comes to these issues maybe we ought to be discussing how we can embrace those we do not agree with. Offended Buddhists always seemed to me to be the epitome of an oxymoron.
Gassho
Ishin
Sat/lahGrateful for your practiceComment
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