[Engaged] Engaged Practice: I agree....Whats Next?

[Jakuden]

Thank you so much Sekishi, Todd and kids! What an uplifting thing to see.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Anka]

Hi Sekishi,

All your post did was remind me I had not made a stance on the topic clear yet. No need to apologise, in fact I thank you for stating your stance and reasoning so clearly.

James F
Sat

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[Sekishi]

Reading your post made me want to clarify something about an earlier post of mine in this thread. Although the issue of illegal immigration is a massive gray area the option of breaking up families is not in my mind. Separating kids from there parents is cruel and something we has a country should not allow.

Hi Anka,

My apologies, I was simply trying to make my position clear (and explain why I felt strongly enough to go out and protest). I was not arguing your point at all.

Deep bows,
Sekishi
#sat #lah



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[Anka]

I'm glad you clarified, because your previous posts felt dangerously close to advocating moral equivalency. I think Buddhism suffers from a particular danger of this, as well as a bias to inaction. It's something I struggle with a lot, particularly when I read something like the poem Faith In Mind. (I also struggle with "turn the other cheek" from my prior religious tradition.) But I simply cannot accept that inaction is an acceptable response.

Hi Todd,

Most of this is just me playing devils advocate on the topic of immigration. I think a big issue now a days is that with most of our communication being online it is easy to find groups of like minded people. However, doing this creates an echo chamber where different views and ideas are buried. This is where a lot of the political extremism we see today was born and where the issue continues to grow.

Part of my practice that I am working on now is that in the past I have seen things as black and white...right and wrong. I am working to see both sides of issues without preconceptions.

All that being said there are lines that should not be crossed and one of them is purposly separating families with no plans to reunite them.

James F
Sat

[Ryushi]

Reading your post made me want to clarify something about an earlier post of mine in this thread. Although the issue of illegal immigration is a massive gray area the option of breaking up families is not in my mind. Separating kids from there parents is cruel and something we has a country should not allow.

I'm glad you clarified, because your previous posts felt dangerously close to advocating moral equivalency. I think Buddhism suffers from a particular danger of this, as well as a bias to inaction. It's something I struggle with a lot, particularly when I read something like the poem Faith In Mind. (I also struggle with "turn the other cheek" from my prior religious tradition.) But I simply cannot accept that inaction is an acceptable response.

[Anka]

Sekishi,

Reading your post made me want to clarify something about an earlier post of mine in this thread. Although the issue of illegal immigration is a massive gray area the option of breaking up families is not in my mind. Separating kids from there parents is cruel and something we has a country should not allow.

Back on the issue of immigration I am afraid our current political environment is not well suited to tackle these complex issues. This is a result of our essentially two party system. We have extremes on either side of the spectrum who take hard stances on almost every topic. How can we work in the gray area when extremes are the only options. Throw in big business meddling and you have our current political environment. Until big business money is taken out of the equation I don't know of there is a fix for it.

James F
Sat

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[Sekishi]

I am going to place these links here to a recent trilogy by a respected podcast from the US public radio show, "Radiolab." It is stunning, it is heartbreaking. Most importantly, it expresses how complicated these issues are, without simple right or wrong answers sometimes.

Yes, I feel that separating family, parents and small children, is so clearly wrong that it needed to be protested and stopped. However, the question of illegal immigration itself, and how to deal with it, is the bigger question with no easy answers.

Great recommendation Jundo (I never miss a Radiolab - it is one of my favorite podcasts!).

As you allude, the causes of conditions around illegal immigration are boundless - a dense thicket of individual choices and biases, national policies, economics, and politics. Well intentioned people have been trying for reform for years. I have opinions about this grey area, but am also very open to a multitude of views.

Separating children from their parents with no clear plan to re-unite them, and then putting them in kennels or tents: this is a bright line for me. Such a policy is deeply inhumane. I can see no grey area.

At least that is my view.

Deep bows to all,
Sekishi
#sat #lah

[Shinshi]

Thank you Jundo for your teachings. I found that post really insightful and I appreciate the links.

Not only are the problems incredibly complex - our current political landscape seems to be such that issues are only addressed only in the simplest terms. Complex issues are reduced to some meaningless slogan. And then the slogan is used to create policy - completely ignoring the underlying issues.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Tairin]

Thank you for posting these Jundo.

Yesterday I avoided a confrontational discussion with my wife’s opinionated uncle on this topic. We were talking about something else and the topic of separating parents from children at the border came up. I was told “you don’t understand the situation”. I was about to respond but then decided better of it. Surprisingly he also let it go.

I do believe that no matter the reason it is wrong to separate the children from their parents. Even if some kids are being used by drug traffickers or whatever this is a case where you error on the side of keeping families together BUT I do recognize that this a complicated issue with lots of grey.

I’ll take some time to educate myself more on this issue


Tairin
Sat today.

[Anka]

Gassho Jundo. This like all issues is not black and white but a nice gray. This is a highly complex issue that does not have an easy fix solution.

James F
Sat

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[Jundo]

I am going to place these links here to a recent trilogy by a respected podcast from the US public radio show, "Radiolab." It is stunning, it is heartbreaking. Most importantly, it expresses how complicated these issues are, without simple right or wrong answers sometimes.

Yes, I feel that separating family, parents and small children, is so clearly wrong that it needed to be protested and stopped. However, the question of illegal immigration itself, and how to deal with it, is the bigger question with no easy answers. This program explains why. The bottom line is the preservation of life, as our Precepts guide us to seek. This program describes tens of thousands of deaths due to a combination of (1) desperate people, mostly for economic reasons although some to escape gang violence and persecution, willing to do almost anything for a chance at a better life, combined with (2) government border policies that were so effective at the "easier" (none are easy) crossing points, thus forcing people to walk through the deserts and mountains, a trip many do not survive. The policies have also increased the role of "coyote" smugglers, who often physically abuse the people they are leading. What happened is that tightening restrictions caused people to come the hardest ways. I will be frank, it almost (emphasis on almost!) made me think at one point "the Wall might not be a bad idea if it completely stops crossing all along the border (it would not, as the show makes clear) because then we could replace this madness with a rational system of admission that would save lives."

I suppose my point is that easing or tightening enforcement and restrictions in one way has effects, many unexpected and life threatening, in other sometimes unseen ways. Great caution is required.

For that reason, opinions can vary among good Buddhists. I do not think that we can say the the Precepts and Compassion lead us particularly to x or y policy stance on this question. While I believe that separating children and parents is wrong, I also believe that a radical reformation of this system is required. I believe that these poor people should not be subject to violence and economic injustice back home. I believe that as many good people as possible should be given a chance to contribute to American (and, where similar situations exist, European and Japanese) society. Policies need to be developed which bring order to the system, while not encouraging people to make these horrible and life threatening treks. I am not sure what those policies are, and hope our supposed "leaders" of both parties put the politics aside and develop some workable policies. Thus, I am not willing to officially say at this point that "Buddhists" or "our Sangha" must believe x or y about immigration policy apart from the most basic stance that (1) separating families is wrong, (2) we must do all we can to preserve life, (3) we must continue to work for a world where so many people do not have to live in economic deprivation and subject to violence, (4) there must be developed some rational policy to thread this needle by our leaders. For example, I have recently heard the voices of good and caring Buddhists, some living near border areas such as California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas, who say that things are not so simple.

You can listen online or download as an MP3. Be warned that some of the descriptions, including of the biology of death in the desert and what happens to corpses to cause them to almost vanish, as well as sexual assaults, may be difficult for sensitive listeners.

Border Trilogy Part 1: Hole in the Fence

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/border-trilogy-part-1

Border Trilogy Part 2: Hold the Line

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/bo...rt-2-hold-line

Border Trilogy Part 3: What Remains

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/bo...3-what-remains

Personally, I would like to find a way to stop people crossing through the desert and dying, while bringing them some relief in their home countries from poverty and violence, combined with a rational system of admissions. European, Japanese and American workers worried about their own jobs and wages in the face of competition also must be listened to, as well as economists who speak of the mixed positive and negative effects of immigration on domestic economies. Right now, doing all that seems almost impossible. It almost seems that we must pick among priorities.

I will say that in the Buddha's day, there were also terrible cases of famine and war, mass migrations and kingdoms which built walls and castles to protect their territories. I don't believe that the Buddha himself came up with one "Buddhist solution" except to say that this world, Samsara, is a place of suffering beyond fixing. Bodhidharma crossed mountains and seas to come from the west. I still don't know why.

Gassho, J

[Amelia]

Well done, you guys. <3

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Troy]

My daughter and I attended a local march here in California today. We also skipped the big rallies in San Francisco and Oakland, opting for a local rally in Concord, CA. It was hot, but there were over 1,000 people in attendance. Lots of organizers and politicians gave speeches and it was a super energetic crowd. My daughter was absolutely thrilled to see so many people who cared about this issue as much as she does.



Same. My daughter just could not stop smiling all the way home on BART. It was so encouraging for me, as it's been a tough week of news for this country.

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Her smile is contagious indeed. What a wonderful experience to share with your daughter


Sat2day

[Ryushi]

My daughter and I attended a local march here in California today. We also skipped the big rallies in San Francisco and Oakland, opting for a local rally in Concord, CA. It was hot, but there were over 1,000 people in attendance. Lots of organizers and politicians gave speeches and it was a super energetic crowd. My daughter was absolutely thrilled to see so many people who cared about this issue as much as she does.

On the way home my son was positively beaming. While at the march, everyone we met was smiling. There is a teaching in that I think. *It feels good to do good.*

Same. My daughter just could not stop smiling all the way home on BART. It was so encouraging for me, as it's been a tough week of news for this country.

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Nice work Sekishi and son. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH