7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

[KellyRok]

Hello all,

Pg 14 Heavenly Wind
"That which we call paradise or happiness or the Dharma or enlightenment cannot be sought outside us. It will be found only when we notice that we are innately endowed with it."

"If you try for it, you will become separated from it."

This topic isn't a new one for us is it? To me this story is a gentle reminder of why I need to plant my butt on my cushion each day.

I am the youngest of four children in my family. I have a strong bond with my sister, who is closest in age to me (we are five years apart). Growing up, my sister was often bossy and always felt the need to tell me what to do and when to do it – as bigger siblings tend to do. I began to rely on her judgement, or rather her perceptions of my situation and the best way to handle it instead of trusting in myself to make a decision. And I’ve found that throughout my life, I have sometimes felt the need to call on her or another close friend to, in essence, validate my own feelings on what I should think or do. I sometimes felt/feel my happiness depends on another person's perspective of me, my decisions, or I look to them to help me figure out what I already know in my heart to be true. I've found through this practice, that it would just be simpler to tune into myself in the first place; put trust in myself and follow what my instincts tell me to do!

Recently, I have placed myself in a situation in which I put so much stock in what other’s opinions or perceptions "may" be of me that I forgot to just trust myself, just be myself and let others perceive me as they will. Do I really need other’s approval to be happy in my life? A kind friend reminded me that it is important to look inside and just be who I am first and I thank him.

QUESTION: Describe a time in your life when you have allowed outside influences to affect your way of thinking or doing?


Pg 15

"If it Sloshes, there isn't enough. People are like gourds. Human beings who are truly self-aware remain calm and unruffled no matter what happens. When people rush around busily, complaining and making excuses, they prove their lack of wisdom.”

I loved this story. It puts such a neat spin on advice we've heard throughout our lives - the advice for us to count our blessings, or to look at what is already present in our lives. Prior to starting down this path and still sometimes on this path, I've let little things upend my sense of calm.

The very day our moving trucks were delivering our things to our new house, my van broke down. I had just started my job (and the kids started school) that very week, so I wasn’t about to ask my boss for a day off. My mind tells me, “oh crap, we have school tomorrow can Eric leave a little later to take us, I have no idea where a garage is to get it fixed, this is going to cost a lot, we can’t afford anything unexpected right now after moving"…on and on. The same day, our phones were hooked up and activated, yet our phonelines were dead – after a visit from the phone company, we find out that phone lines were never run to the house. My mind tells me, “this house is only 5 years old, how in the world were there no phone lines hooked up, and this is going to cost a lot" …on and on. The same week, our dishwasher stopped working and we had to call a repair man to come fix it. My mind tells me, “I barely have time during the week now to get things done, now I’ll have to wash dishes by hand! (oh the horror ), now we’re going to have to pay the repair man and pay for a new dishwasher, this is going to cost a lot."

After making it through all this, I realized that it did end up costing a lot…but not a lot of money. It cost me time away from my kids, stress and headaches over things that were out of my control, and unnecessary anger toward everyone when things were easily fixable. As many wise individuals have stated here, zazen doesn't fix all these problems, but it does allow us to see through them. It takes away the power of these stresses, and our fears of them so that we can come through them essentially unharmed.

QUESTION: Have you had a time in your life when you felt like you were just "sloshing" around and couldn't find a sense of calm? Were you able to regain some stillness, and how?

This is just my limited interpretation of these stories, I'm looking forward to hearing yours.

bows to all,
Kelly/Jinmei

[Seiryu]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

QUESTION: Describe a time in your life when you have allowed outside influences to affect your way of thinking or doing?

Looking into Buddhism at the start of my search really did change my way of thinking and doing things. At first I was your typical depressed, hate the world, what's the point of it all, teenager, and I was letting my blaming everyone else stop me from really progressing. Zen, and other Buddhist traditions have really made me see, that what I wanted isn't something to be found, it is something that we all already have, it just has to be discovered.

QUESTION: Have you had a time in your life when you felt like you were just "sloshing" around and couldn't find a sense of calm? Were you able to regain some stillness, and how?

After my family was hit with the economic crisis that struck us, I was really anything but calm minded. I was more frantic then anything else. But what helped me through it was the fact that I wasn't the only one that comes through these things, and life itself is experienced in cycles. We don't ever truly know the joys of being healthy into we have plunged into the depth of being truly sick.
And during Zazen a period of realizing that, once you start dropping all that is around you while you are just sitting you begin to realize that the world is going to be fine without you there at all. That help me regain my stillness.

Just my rambling...

Gassho


Seiryu

[Hoyu]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

QUESTION: Describe a time in your life when you have allowed outside influences to affect your way of thinking or doing?

A big one for me has been finding my way here to Treeleaf. My way of thinking has been significantly influenced by all that I am learning from everyone and everything here! But it's not just me, Treeleaf has become a common word in our home. My son Leon even became super excited the day I was to have Dokusan with Jundo Sensei and in spite of technical difficulties he kept his fingers crossed wishing for the computer to work well enough for him to see Jundo. Many talks around the dinner table revolve around what's the latest going on here. It's nice to share in this!

Chapter 15

Zoo we mama was this the chapter for me! It starts in a tea gathering. I could just imagine sitting in front of the Tokonoma and looking up at this scroll!
I'd like to give a little information on the significance of the scroll in relation to the Japanese Tea Ceremony.
The first place the guests go after entering the tea room is to the Tokonoma, which is considered to be the spiritual center of the tea room. For the first sitting of tea there is always a hanging scroll which can be calligraphy, sumie painting, or a combination of the two(on one scroll). The scroll contains the "thought for that gathering". Similar to the talks given here where some idea will be expressed for contemplation before doing Zazen. Not to be focused on during the proceedings. A lot of scrolls which are suitable for use in tea are written by Zen priests.

QUESTION: Have you had a time in your life when you felt like you were just "sloshing" around and couldn't find a sense of calm? Were you able to regain some stillness, and how?

The optimist in me has this to say: The gourd is not half empty, it's half full :wink:

[Hoyu]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

Jinmei wrote:
The very day our moving trucks were delivering our things to our new house, my van broke down. I had just started my job (and the kids started school) that very week, so I wasn’t about to ask my boss for a day off. My mind tells me, “oh crap, we have school tomorrow can Eric leave a little later to take us, I have no idea where a garage is to get it fixed, this is going to cost a lot, we can’t afford anything unexpected right now after moving"…on and on. The same day, our phones were hooked up and activated, yet our phonelines were dead – after a visit from the phone company, we find out that phone lines were never run to the house. My mind tells me, “this house is only 5 years old, how in the world were there no phone lines hooked up, and this is going to cost a lot" …on and on. The same week, our dishwasher stopped working and we had to call a repair man to come fix it

I feel your pain, I can't count the number of times when we have had one thing breaks down and then so many others follow! One thing on it's own, sure no problem, but it's always so much more teeth gritting when things compound at or near the same time.
PS Why on earth did they never run a phone line to the house :?:

Seiryu wrote:
At first I was your typical depressed, hate the world, what's the point of it all, teenager, and I was letting my blaming everyone else stop me from really progressing.

Aah how I remember those days well! I love the teachings of Buddhism but this is one thing that scares the hell out of me.....reincarnation means having to go through never ending cycle of teenage years! YIKES! :shock: :lol:

[Myoku]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

QUESTION: Describe a time in your life when you have allowed outside influences to affect your way of thinking or doing?

Jinmei,
I love this question; its comes so decent, but is so deep. Every moment outside influences affects my thinking, every moment it influences my doing, there is no expcetion. Wether I allow it or now. And even that isn't the truth, its just an imagination of allowing or refusing, its just how we relate to the outside. And even that isnt the truth, what outside after all, isnt all interconnected ? So what to allow, so who should allow. And though its what I refuse moment by moment, insisting on my dream and separation. But I'ld like to scratch all that and just remain with your question, its really beautiful.
_()_
Peter

[Heisoku]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

QUESTION: Describe a time in your life when you have allowed outside influences to affect your way of thinking or doing?

- Wow! When wasn't I influenced by outside influences?....That's why I practice and try to find the way I can be without 'intentionality' or 'force'. How can we know when this isn't imaginary deluded thinking?
I guess my happy memories are of times when things just rolled and flowed and my connections within these moments were natural and unforced... kicking back with friends on Saturday afternoons..learning to surf...hiking alone without any particular place to go...being with my mum as a kid on the kitchen floor.
Nowadays my job is so prescribed that it takes a lot of shikantaza just to remain where I am at. I know that without it I would be deluged by the policy prescriptions and guidance expectations that drive us to do more than we should. I am very grateful for Treeleaf as an oasis in this turbulence.

QUESTION: Have you had a time in your life when you felt like you were just "sloshing" around and couldn't find a sense of calm? Were you able to regain some stillness, and how?

My nan had a small earthenware clay milk jug she gave me to hold my colour pencils when I was very small. On the side was inscribed 'Still waters run deep'. I never understood this until my mum explained some time after nan's death.
It has been the practice of shikantaza that has enabled me to find some stillness within so that attendant above mentioned turbulence recedes.... I think it was Jundo's analogy of the sea with waves above and stillness below that describes this best.
There is something else that happens for me. In this stillness there arises space and time to deal with things. I have noticed that this allows empathy and compassion to drive my responses to situations rather than quick half-baked reactions.
There is a power in this compassion (which isn't personal to me - kind of like a third way) that exerts a subtle influence on people around it, a 'rightness of response' that is open, gentle and loving ........ so maybe my nana's jug should have read 'Still waters run deep and strong'.

[KellyRok]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

Hello all,

My nan had a small earthenware clay milk jug she gave me to hold my colour pencils when I was very small. On the side was inscribed 'Still waters run deep'. I never understood this until my mum explained some time after nan's death.
It has been the practice of shikantaza that has enabled me to find some stillness within so that attendant above mentioned turbulence recedes.... I think it was Jundo's analogy of the sea with waves above and stillness below that describes this best.
There is something else that happens for me. In this stillness there arises space and time to deal with things. I have noticed that this allows empathy and compassion to drive my responses to situations rather than quick half-baked reactions.

Nigel, I loved your story! Thank you for sharing this. I think stillness and space can be the answer to alot of things, especially in dealing with "half-baked" reactions. _/_

PS Why on earth did they never run a phone line to the house

JRBrisson - Well, unknown to us at the time, the builder of the housing development we live in, went bankrupt before completing many of the houses here. Our home was one of the ones that weren't quite complete :shock: . We've had to pay for a few things to make it more complete...

Oddly enough, I have this Zen desk calendar and this Wednesday's advice was, "When the heart grieves over what it has lost, the spirit rejoices over what it has left." Talk about looking at the gourd half full .

Peter - "And even that isnt the truth, what outside after all, isnt all interconnected ?" _/_ Thank you for the reminder...many of my decisions are based on information that I have deemed outside of myself, but is any of the universe outside of ourselves. Wonderful advice!


Seiryu - "...that what I wanted isn't something to be found, it is something that we all already have, it just has to be discovered." I love this, especially the last part...it just has to be discovered. Thank you for sharing this.

Gassho,
Kelly/Jinmei

[Jiken]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

Deciding where to go, what to do, how it will be perceived by others. For me it was not really about one influence but the many, too many to count influences that when pushed up all together were my life (and sometimes still are) and they dominated it. I would have to say that most decisions I made were truly not my own they were only a representation of what I thought others might think. As Seiryu said, “Looking into Buddhism at the start of my search really did change my way of thinking and doing things.” The same is true for me. I couldn’t see what was happening.

Aoyama says, “The difference lies not in the wind but in the person perceiving it.” Thus I am now constantly “sloshing” and “not sloshing” and when I am able to realize this to see it I am able to regain stillness. Both are ok. It is happening slowly but more and more.

Good questions

[Hoyu]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

Jinnei wrote:
Oddly enough, I have this Zen desk calendar and this Wednesday's advice was, "When the heart grieves over what it has lost, the spirit rejoices over what it has left." Talk about looking at the gourd half full

Wow! _/_

[Taylor]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

I think I'll answer both of these at once, because they seem to fit together to me:

I often look towards friends for that wonderful thing called validation. Minor decisions, major decisions, somehow that seal of approval by a close friend gives it the "OK!". But usually when I require such a mark, I know what I'm doing might be slightly dubious. I've never needed validation on what I knew was the proper thing to do, when I was full and calm. The need comes from feeling empty, from feeling as though I'm not good enough on my own to make decisions for my own life. That sloshing needs to be filled and it seems as though the vacuum can be closed by another's approval. It's also somewhat like sharing the guilt. "Well, this might not be right but someone else said it was OK!" It's really all a bunch of childishness sometimes. I found that taking responsibility for my life, all of it, even the s***t that really stinks and winds up blowing back in my face, creates calm. When I think that somehow my life is someone else's responsibility, that someone else should show up for my actions, the vacuum opens again. It's that kind of thinking that makes me feel incomplete and the opposite of that thats fills me. And that's that.

Gassho,
Myoken

[BrianW]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

This is just my limited interpretation of these stories

Wonderful job Kelly/Jenmie!

QUESTION: Describe a time in your life when you have allowed outside influences to affect your way of thinking or doing?

In my General Psychology class I teach a section on social psychology and I explain that much of our behavior is dependent upon the social context. A considerable amount of research supports the notion that with the right context you can get many people to do just about anything. Milgram’s classic study in which he showed that he could get subjects to shock another person to death is one such example. (Of course no one was killed and you can’t do these types of studies today.) https://(<a href="http://http://psyc...lgram.htm</a>) Some say because this study was carried out so long ago it has little relevance, but a recent incident in which an individual called a fast food restaurants and got a manager to do as strip search and more to an employee by claiming he was a police officer is evidence that this is not the case. https://(<a href="http://http://en.w...call_scam</a>)

Anyway, the positive side of this is that educating individuals about experiments such as Milgram’s, which is an example of obedience to authority, has the potential of decreasing individuals from falling into the trap of being influenced in a manner inconsistent with their conscience. If you are in a situation and can name what type of influence is being used, you are in a better place to assert your freedom.

That being said, a few years ago I was on a committee and I just go this feeling from the group that my position was not valued and I should just shut up. I got sucked into conformity and obedience to an authority figure (I was not the committee chair.) At the very end I tried to state my case, but I had been silent too long and was ignored. The committee’s decision was disastrous and caused a whole series of very unfortunate events. I have tried to learn my lesson from this and really listen to that uncomfortably feeling that often comes when you are being influenced by others in a negative manner.

Gassho,
BrianW/Jisen

[ChrisA]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

The "Heavenly Wind" passage has been provoking me! When I reflected on this sentence,

If you try for it, you will become separated from it.

I thought immediately that Aoyama, and not the elderly woman, was "trying for it"! Here's an attempt to explain.

As I start down this path of practice, I can fear the gesture of holding up koans, verses, and quotations to demonstrate one's superior understanding or experience. In this situation, it would seem that Aoyama perceives the "heavenly wind," whereas the elderly woman is unable to perceive the breath of heaven blowing upon her and, instead, feels cold.

Perhaps I'm showing my age and immaturity in practice, but I can feel for that cold old woman! But I think that there's more than my identification at work here. These paragraphs about the wind feel like another try ("if you try for it") that leads to separation, in this case between Aoyama and the old woman. Indeed, if as Aoyama wrote,

[t]he difference lies not in the wind but in the person perceiving it

Might the difference here lie not in the elderly woman but in Aoyama, the person perceiving her?

This may seem like picking nits -- this may be picking nits! -- but I offer it as the context for my answer to this question:

Describe a time in your life when you have allowed outside influences to affect your way of thinking or doing?

I have so many answers to this question -- thousands of times! too many to count! -- but the question, and specifically the use of the word "outside," returned me to a key aspect of my beginning practice: what precisely is this outside of me? A garden? The wind? An elderly woman? This little book? That car that just drove by my window as I hold it?

I'm left to choose the same "outside" influence that Aoyama chooses to begin her piece:

I pause in my gardening to look at a small bird overhead whose cry has broken the silence.

When I sit zazen at home, I do so near several open windows, through which the sounds of birds often break the silence. But it is not really "the" silence out there; it is rather "my" silence, a silence created by my inside differentiating an outside. The difference lies not in the silence but in the person perceiving it.

Have you had a time in your life when you felt like you were just "sloshing" around and couldn't find a sense of calm? Were you able to regain some stillness, and how?

Yes, precisely NOW! So off to sit & slosh I go, hoping that the above post is a useful contribution to the discussion of this thought-provoking book.

[Heisoku]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

At the very end I tried to state my case, but I had been silent too long and was ignored.

This is a really interesting phenomena Brian, it happens in many of my places of work, now and in the past. Those of us who are silently considering, reflecting and understanding situations so often remain subjugated to those who are reacting (loudly and forcibly)without consideration of consequences. Is it just a result of personality type? Or is there something more to do with social constructs of what expressions of confidence and knowledge are?

[Dokan]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

QUESTION: Describe a time in your life when you have allowed outside influences to affect your way of thinking or doing?

Always! In our information age it's a constant bombardment of the senses! In many ways I feel I am actively seeking to drink from the firehose. If I find a subject I have little knowledge on I tend to dive in head first. Researching all I can find. I can see this very much as a differentiating factor between my generation and my parents. I am on a road trip with my family, visiting family around the US. Right now we are in North Carolina visiting my in-laws. My daughters picked up a book called Sadako, based upon the life and experiences of Sadako Sasaki. While reading this my daughters had a ton of questions about Hiroshima & Nagasaki and the bombing. My father-in-law used his knowledge to answer some of the basic questions, however, I immediately went to Google & Wikipedia to show the kids the bombs, the damage and even some of the injury and death. They are only 8, but in many ways an image speaks much more deeply to them. I can tell that my father-in-law was a bit put out, but in the end I am a bit of an information junkie. So in the end, and to get to the point, I think influences, rightly measured, can be a great influence on your life and awareness. In this section, I feel it's perspectives that Aoyama is focused on and this is where the 'rubber meets the road', imho. What do you do with that information and influence?

QUESTION: Have you had a time in your life when you felt like you were just "sloshing" around and couldn't find a sense of calm? Were you able to regain some stillness, and how?

I had a really hard time with this section. The analogy for the gourd just was challenging. Self awareness, for me, is like a deep river, but a full gourd I saw as being full of myself. I felt that as we empty the gourd and thereby empty ourselves we will make less and less noise. However I suppose in the end it's just perspective (see previous comments).

As for the question, basically anytime pre-zazen. So about the first 32 years of my life. It wasn't until I started to sit and be still that I felt a stillness. I've always felt that I needed to get this or that. Go here or there. But after some time in practice the stillness grew in depth, as the river, and those desires and attachments slowly have become not as important. My career is a perfect example. I'm a computer security guy. The computer field in general is a constant drive of new ideas and new learning. If you don't keep up, you get left behind. I have/have had several high level certifications and am now a global security manager for a 65k person company. Oddly enough, it really doesn't matter to me anymore. Yes, of course I want to provide for my family and enjoy my job...but somehow it's just not what it used to be. I don't have the same obsessive nature about it. Many times while practicing Tai Chi I see the parallel with my work now...just flowing with the issues, the meetings, the emails....whereas before I was constantly paddling upstream.

Rereading this it really probably doesn't make much sense...guess I need more coffee.

Gassho,

Shawn

[AlanLa]

Re: 7/22 Zen Seeds: Pg 14 and 15

For me it's not about outside influences on my thinking, as this is a given in order to survive and function in the world as well as learn about myself. It's more about striking a balance between those outside and inside influences, and this is where still waters run deep applies. The more I practice the deeper my "waters" and thus the less likely I am to slosh around with those outside influences.