8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40928

    8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

    Welcoming Words to All,

    This week's section seems very anti-words and ideas. Master Keizan spills a lot of words to make the point that none of that is Truth.

    But what is his real point?

    All of the statements he mentions and seems to criticize are basic "Buddhist & Zen Philosophy 101" ... and I do not think that Master Keizan is saying that any of those are "wrong" (no Zen teacher would say that any of those statements are wrong ... even if some of them are partial or only one side of truth, ... because they are each classic descriptions of the Zenny view of the world). Keizan's point was something more subtle ... not some crude view of Zen as "without words".

    It is simply that the idea alone ... the words alone ... discussion and debating them alone ... is not their true Truth.

    Keizan even criticizes the most well known classic example of silence as "Truth" ... the roaring silence of Vimalakirti ... to say that even that is not "Truth" ... not Truth enough about silence when we try to describe the silence as a story of words and images about the silence.

    Take, for example, how I often speak of "dancing" to describe Emptiness ... and the experience of losing (and rediscovering) our separate self as dancers of the dance.

    viewtopic.php?p=39172#p39172

    Universes of dancers (including you and me) danced up in this dance ... each dancer seemingly standing apart on her own two feet ... yet each dancer simultaneously seen as just the dance-dancing-the-dance (for what would we think a 'dancer' without a dance to dance her and her to dance? There is no dancer apart from her dance.) There is nothing but the dance and the motion, the separation lost in a lively, enlivening, living blur .
    Well, my best descriptions ... although not wrong ... cannot capture the actual experience of dancing. The way to truly know this dance is to lose (and find) yourself in the actual dancing.

    A simpler example is sweet, vanilla ice cream on a hot summer day. No name, chemical formula, prosaic or poetic description can capture the Truth found on one's own tongue as you lose yourself in the sweetness and coolness.

    Something like that.

    Master Dogen, Keizan's Dharma Grandpa, was never as "anti-language" as many think (in their own mental ideas and images about "Zen") all Zen Masters need to be. It is common to say that words can never capture Truth even if a Zen teacher's well chosen words might serve as 'a finger pointing at the moon'. However, Dogen went farther by saying that the finger is not apart from moon if well formed, and words can be the moonlight. Certainly, Zen teachers thoughout history have spilled pages and pages of words and ideas trying to convey Zen Truths ... and they succeed if the moon can be heard through them.

    For Dogen it is much like saying that the Truth of the garden is not found when we rip out all the flowers and weeds and reduce things to the bare soil. Far from it! Well chosen word-flowers are the expression and total actualization of the garden itself, the "Truth" of the garden realized in its life and flowering. Of course, it is vital that we perceive it as such ... and live so as to nurture the flowers and avoid the verbal and other weeds.

    Something like that.

    There ... more words spilled! 8)

    This week Cook from 63, Hixon from 65
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Taylor
    Member
    • May 2010
    • 388

    #2
    Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

    Through these eyes it seems that the idea of Truth is dispelled, in a way. Let me explain: I have a mug of tea. Green tea with lemongrass to be specific. It's warm-ish, slowly cooling as I write this. Now you have your picture, your sensation, your opinion of my tea. Exactly how warm it is, the general idea of a mug and this and that. Right?

    WRONG! :P Even if you were to take out my tongue to taste this tea you would never taste is as I have. This tea is purely me and I am purely this tea. If you were to taste it it would be purely you and so on and so forth. If you say you agree with me on it's taste, well, you may be partially right, but good luck getting inside my head when it comes to the taste 8)

    So yes, there is tea out there, but each person gets a different experience, even from the same cup. Am I following the correct road?

    Gassho
    Taylor
    Gassho,
    Myoken
    [url:r05q3pze]http://staresatwalls.blogspot.com/[/url:r05q3pze]

    Comment

    • Shohei
      Member
      • Oct 2007
      • 2854

      #3
      Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

      Originally posted by Taylor
      Through these eyes it seems that the idea of Truth is dispelled, in a way. Let me explain: I have a mug of tea. Green tea with lemongrass to be specific. It's warm-ish, slowly cooling as I write this. Now you have your picture, your sensation, your opinion of my tea. Exactly how warm it is, the general idea of a mug and this and that. Right?

      WRONG! :P Even if you were to take out my tongue to taste this tea you would never taste is as I have. This tea is purely me and I am purely this tea. If you were to taste it it would be purely you and so on and so forth. If you say you agree with me on it's taste, well, you may be partially right, but good luck getting inside my head when it comes to the taste 8)

      So yes, there is tea out there, but each person gets a different experience, even from the same cup. Am I following the correct road?

      Gassho
      Taylor
      Hmmm, though experienced uniquely by each, I stilled really enjoyed your tea!
      Thank you Taylor!

      Gassho
      Shohei

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 40928

        #4
        Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

        Originally posted by Taylor
        Through these eyes it seems that the idea of Truth is dispelled, in a way. Let me explain: I have a mug of tea. Green tea with lemongrass to be specific. It's warm-ish, slowly cooling as I write this. Now you have your picture, your sensation, your opinion of my tea. Exactly how warm it is, the general idea of a mug and this and that. Right?

        WRONG! :P Even if you were to take out my tongue to taste this tea you would never taste is as I have. This tea is purely me and I am purely this tea. If you were to taste it it would be purely you and so on and so forth. If you say you agree with me on it's taste, well, you may be partially right, but good luck getting inside my head when it comes to the taste 8)

        So yes, there is tea out there, but each person gets a different experience, even from the same cup. Am I following the correct road?

        Gassho
        Taylor
        Uchiyama Roshi had a similar image in opening the hand of thought. One of the best books for folks new on the Zen trail, always highly recommended to everyone ... new beginners and old beginners ...

        http://www.amazon.com/Opening-Hand-Thou ... 0861713575

        I cannot find the image from that book online ... but there is this famous tea cup story ...

        THE MASTER Nan-in had a visitor who came to inquire about Zen. But
        instead of listening, the visitor kept talking about his own
        ideas.

        After a while, Nan-in served tea. He poured tea into his visitor's
        cup until it was full, then he kept on pouring.

        Finally the visitor could not restrain himself. "Don't you see
        it's full?" he said. "You can't get any more in!"

        "Just so," replied Nan-in, stopping at last. "And like this cup,
        you are filled with your own ideas. How can you expect me to give
        you Zen unless you offer me an empty cup?"


        Another good tea cup story ...

        THE MASTER Ikkyu showed his wisdom even as a child. Once he broke
        the precious heirloom teacup of his teacher, and was greatly
        upset. While he was wondering what to do, he heard his teacher
        coming. Quickly he hid the pieces of the cup under his robe.

        "Master," he said, "why do things die?"

        "It is perfectly natural for things to die and for the matter
        gathered in them to separate and disintegrate," said the teacher.
        "When its time has come every person and every thing must go.

        "Master," said little Ikkyu, showing the pieces, "it was time for
        your cup to go.


        And this is not about tea, but it is a damn good story and mentions a cup and a cupping ...

        SEKKYO said to one of his monks, "Can you get hold of Emptiness?"

        "I'll try" said the monk, and he cupped his hands in the air.

        "That's not very good," said Sekkyo. "You haven't got anything in
        there!"

        "Well, master," said the monk, "please show me a better way."

        Thereupon Sekkyo seized the monk's nose and gave it a great yank.

        "Ouch!" yelled the monk. "You hurt me!"

        "That's the way to get hold of Emptiness!" said Sekkyo.


        Gassho and a Cup of Tea, J
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Taigu
          Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
          • Aug 2008
          • 2710

          #5
          Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

          Thank you Taylor, your cup of tea is sweet. Be careful though, going down that road so enthusiasticaly you clearly run the risk of loosing the path of the non dual. You see, the non dual is just not the negation of the dual( cup of tea and you) or the statement of oneness ( his tea is purely me and I am purely this tea) which has a definite mind only flavour to it...it is the ability to hold both at the same time, and let go of both of them.

          gassho


          Taigu

          Comment

          • Taigu
            Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
            • Aug 2008
            • 2710

            #6
            Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

            As Lex Hixon writes:

            leave aside marketplace and monastery.
            Drop body-mind. This is the path of non dwelling, non-abiding. The bright full moon is bigger that all this petty drama-Dharma, stuff about teachers and students, awakening or not, and yet, the bright full moonlight ripples on muddy waters and soiled puddles. It shines from neither without nor within, and the full samsara is a blossoming flower of emptiness.

            Please stand, live, breathe, laugh and cry out of this. The full blown moon. Return again and again. This is what Dogen called the backward step.

            Dont be misled by Buddhas and taught by demons. Just enjoy their company, join the party for a while and return to the source.

            take care

            gassho


            Taigu

            Comment

            • Jundo
              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
              • Apr 2006
              • 40928

              #7
              Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

              Originally posted by Taigu
              As Lex Hixon writes:

              leave aside marketplace and monastery.
              Drop body-mind. This is the path of non dwelling, non-abiding. The bright full moon is bigger that all this petty drama-Dharma, stuff about teachers and students, awakening or not, and yet, the bright full moonlight ripples on muddy waters and soiled puddles. It shines from neither without nor within, and the full samsara is a blossoming flower of emptiness.

              Please stand, live, breathe, laugh and cry out of this. The full blown moon. Return again and again. This is what Dogen called the backward step.

              Dont be misled by Buddhas and taught by demons. Just enjoy their company, join the party for a while and return to the source.

              take care

              gassho


              Taigu
              Ahhhhh .... lovely. Thank you.

              Look forward to seeing you here for your visit to Tsukuba tomorrow, T.
              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

              Comment

              • Taylor
                Member
                • May 2010
                • 388

                #8
                Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

                Originally posted by Taigu
                As Lex Hixon writes:

                leave aside marketplace and monastery.
                Drop body-mind. This is the path of non dwelling, non-abiding. The bright full moon is bigger that all this petty drama-Dharma, stuff about teachers and students, awakening or not, and yet, the bright full moonlight ripples on muddy waters and soiled puddles. It shines from neither without nor within, and the full samsara is a blossoming flower of emptiness.

                Please stand, live, breathe, laugh and cry out of this. The full blown moon. Return again and again. This is what Dogen called the backward step.

                Dont be misled by Buddhas and taught by demons. Just enjoy their company, join the party for a while and return to the source.

                take care

                gassho


                Taigu
                I admit I was terribly confused at your comments, wonder what views I held, how they differed, what I was missing. Then the kicker: To hold any view, dual or non, is to still try and hold the moon in your hands. Jumping more and more, scooping at puddles and lakes to try to grasp it. Instead of just placing your hands down by your sides and enjoying the moon in the sky. Dropping ALL thoughts, likes and dislikes. Not just the ones we are constantly holding onto.

                999 bows,
                Taylor
                Gassho,
                Myoken
                [url:r05q3pze]http://staresatwalls.blogspot.com/[/url:r05q3pze]

                Comment

                • Taigu
                  Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
                  • Aug 2008
                  • 2710

                  #9
                  Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

                  Bingo Taylor, but don't even hang there...

                  Nagarjuna writes to sum up his work:

                  I bow to Gautama
                  who through compassion
                  taught the true Law
                  leading to the relinquishing of all views


                  As you now clearly seem to understand: most people would choose to reject a body of beliefs and pick up another one, more refined with a Buddhist twist. A god chases another.
                  Relinquishing all views is a beautiful way to describe the practice, space and reality of shikantaza.
                  Let's not turn it into another view...

                  0ne big gassholess gassho


                  Taigu

                  Comment

                  • Amelia
                    Member
                    • Jan 2010
                    • 4980

                    #10
                    Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

                    ...To hold any view, dual or non, is to still try and hold the moon in your hands. Jumping more and more, scooping at puddles and lakes to try to grasp it. Instead of just placing your hands down by your sides and enjoying the moon in the sky. Dropping ALL thoughts, likes and dislikes. Not just the ones we are constantly holding onto.

                    999 bows,
                    Taylor
                    The nun Chiyono studied for years, but was unable to find enlightenment. One night she was carrying an old pail filled with water and watching the full moon reflected in it. The bamboo strip that held the pail-staves broke, and the pail fell all apart. The water rushed out, the moon's reflection disappeared, and Chiyono found enlightenment. She wrote this verse:

                    This way and that way
                    I tried to keep the pail together
                    Hoping the weak bamboo
                    Would never break.

                    Suddenly the bottom fell out:
                    No more water:
                    No more moon in the water:
                    Emptiness in my hand!"
                    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40928

                      #11
                      Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

                      Originally posted by Taylor
                      999 bows,
                      Taylor
                      Why not 1000?
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Taylor
                        Member
                        • May 2010
                        • 388

                        #12
                        Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

                        Originally posted by Jundo
                        Originally posted by Taylor
                        999 bows,
                        Taylor
                        Why not 1000?
                        The bow-less bow. If you wait for it, it never comes. Throw that in Shiji Shobogenzo and sit on it :P
                        Gassho,
                        Myoken
                        [url:r05q3pze]http://staresatwalls.blogspot.com/[/url:r05q3pze]

                        Comment

                        • BrianW
                          Member
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 511

                          #13
                          Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

                          Originally posted by Jundo
                          It is simply that the idea alone ... the words alone ... discussion and debating them alone ... is not their true Truth.
                          For me one sentence in Hixon seems to sum it all up for me. Hixon states:

                          "Yet if we rush toward truth past all the wonderful expressions of truth, we may miss the most delicately seasoned dish."

                          Gassho,
                          Jisen/BrianW

                          Comment

                          • Amelia
                            Member
                            • Jan 2010
                            • 4980

                            #14
                            Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

                            Originally posted by BrianW
                            "Yet if we rush toward truth past all the wonderful expressions of truth, we may miss the most delicately seasoned dish."
                            This one made me simultaneously visualize enjoying a beach at twilight with the taste of a really spicy and vibrant chicken breast in my mouth...
                            求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
                            I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

                            Comment

                            • Tb
                              Member
                              • Jan 2008
                              • 3186

                              #15
                              Re: 8/13 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Buddhanandi

                              Hi.

                              "Dear friend, if we debate, it will not be the truth."
                              Maybe i should put this up as my signature...

                              But you know what?
                              He's wrong!
                              In a sense anyway...

                              Since it's exactly the truth, no matter what they do with it.
                              It's just the conception of it that is "wrong" (without there being a wrong/right) not the truth...

                              THis blends perfectly with the master merging with the studentpicture later in the chapter.
                              If you have no left-right what is up-down?

                              Mtfbwy
                              Fugen


                              Mtfbwy
                              Fugen
                              Life is our temple and its all good practice
                              Blog: http://fugenblog.blogspot.com/

                              Comment

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