7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

[Jundo]

When doctrinal debates were held at monasteries of old, flags of the respective teams and debaters would be posted at the gates. When the debate was done, the 'loser's' flag would be knocked down by the victor.

Is one of the arguments by Keizan in this week's reading that no readings at all are necessary for Zen Practice, and no argument as to the correct meaning? Keizan somehow seems quite well read in the Buddhist Sutras and history, well versed in doctrine, and an able debater.

Or is too much reading, or reading the wrong way, a bad thing? Ananda was a walking encyclopedia of everything the Buddha ever said yet, somehow, this was not enough. What was missing?

Is it more a matter of piercing to the heart of the meaning of the words ... which are sometimes needed, sometimes not?

Shall we debate the meaning of this? Is there even a gate to post our flags, or no gate at all? A gateless gate? Shall we see who knocks down whose flag first?

Another famous Koan ...

The wind was flapping a temple flag, and two monks were arguing about the flag. One said, "The flag is moving." The other said, "the wind is moving." They could not agree, no matter how hard they debated. The sixth patriarch, Eno, happened to come by and said, "Not the wind, not the flag. It is the mind that is moving!" The two monks were struck with awe.

Our reading this week is Cook from page 36, and Hixon from page 43

Gassho, J

[Tb]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Hi.

When doctrinal debates were held at monasteries of old, flags of the respective teams and debaters would be posted at the gates. When the debate was done, the 'loser's' flag would be knocked down by the victor.

Is one of the argument of this week's reading that no readings at all are necessary for Zen Practice, and no argument as to the correct meaning? Keizan somehow seems quite well read in the Buddhist Sutras and history, well versed in doctrine, and an able debater.

Or is too much reading, or reading the wrong way, a bad thing? Ananda was a walking encyclopedia of everything the Buddha ever said yet, somehow, this was not enough. What was missing?

What is too much?
By the very definition of the phrase too much you have too much, does it matter for whom/what?
Does the same apply for the wrong way?

Another thought is if you have nothing, what do you have to lose?
Nothing.

So what was missing?
Nothing.
Was that enough?

Is it more a matter of piercing to the heart of the meaning of the words ... which are sometimes needed, sometimes not?

Shall we debate the meaning of this? Is there even a gate to post our flags, or no gate at all? A gateless gate? Shall we see who knocks down whose flag first?

Some have flagpoles, some have maypoles...
Are they properly grounded?

Another famous Koan ...

The wind was flapping a temple flag, and two monks were arguing about the flag. One said, "The flag is moving." The other said, "the wind is moving." They could not agree, no matter how hard they debated. The sixth patriarch, Eno, happened to come by and said, "Not the wind, not the flag. It is the mind that is moving!" The two monks were struck with awe.

[/quote]

Moving where?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Taylor]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

When doctrinal debates were held at monasteries of old, flags of the respective teams and debaters would be posted at the gates. When the debate was done, the 'loser's' flag would be knocked down by the victor.

Is one of the argument of this week's reading that no readings at all are necessary for Zen Practice, and no argument as to the correct meaning? Keizan somehow seems quite well read in the Buddhist Sutras and history, well versed in doctrine, and an able debater.

Or is too much reading, or reading the wrong way, a bad thing? Ananda was a walking encyclopedia of everything the Buddha ever said yet, somehow, this was not enough. What was missing?

Both books often speak of questing for something. Ananda and Mahakshyapa were both standing in the same spot facing opposite directions, but Ananda thought he needed to take a trip. So he went on one for twenty years, basically around the Earth and the Universe with his bag of words and knowledge. Not good, not bad, just what was needed. When he finally got back to Mahakshyapa's spot he was finally looking him in the face. Sometimes a banana is ripe when it's picked, other times it just needs to sit awhile.

The more and more I read and sit, the more apparent it seems that there really isn't anything to do. I certainly don't get it, especially because I think I can see it in the distance. But sometimes it's more of a "so what?" and sit. Still questing, but questioning the quest more than ever.

Taylor

[Jen]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Both books often speak of questing for something. Ananda and Mahakshyapa were both standing in the same spot facing opposite directions, but Ananda thought he needed to take a trip. So he went on one for twenty years, basically around the Earth and the Universe with his bag of words and knowledge. Not good, not bad, just what was needed. When he finally got back to Mahakshyapa's spot he was finally looking him in the face.

Thank you for this imagery!

Taking years of study before knocking down the flag is not a good or bad thing, but it does give me some insight on some of my own foibles. Often the seductiveness of book learning seems to outweigh the necessity of action (or inaction as the case may be) of zazen. While study is important, it mustn't take the place of sitting. I can be tempted after a long day of trying to convince myself that reading a chapter of some Buddhist tome excuses me from cushion time. It doesn't.

The lesson of Ananda is 'in your own time.' Makes me think of talk of instantaneous and gradual enlightenment I have read. Ananda took the gradual path, but the destination was the same so, so be it.

[CraigfromAz]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

I found HIxon's translation/interpretation to be much clearer than Cooks in this case. Cook's comments on "the echo" confuse me:

Hixon: Ananda's awakened response, his full attention, is an instant echo.

Cook: Kashyapa, knowing the time was right, called "Ananda", and like an echo following a sound, Ananda responded... (a couple paragraphs later)...Do not get stuck in purity. You should go further and understand the echo.

Hixon seems to be saying Ananda's awakening instantatneously echoed Kashyapa's call. I don't understand Cook's comment about purity and understanding the echo. Is he just saying don't get stuck in intellectual understanding, but expereince awakening for yourself?

Gassho,

Craig

[Shugen]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Some (like me) need to read/study for a while before acting - now less interest in reading/studying, more interest in seeing for myself. I think you need a bit of both. Is one better than the other, says who and why?

I liked

There is no one seperate from Wonderful Mind, and therefore no one to understand. This realization is the gold brocade robe of transmission, which now manifest as the golden body fo the fully awakened ananda......There is only the robe, with no one wearing it. But do not get stuck in pristine emptiness. The historical Ananda actually wears the robe...

Ron

[Taigu]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Hi all,

Anything other than the gold brocade robe? The idea of most people about transmission is that there is a secret element into it, a body of hidden teachings...This is the fantasy. At midnight, behind closed doors and red curtains, the teacher opens up a secret treasury box...

This particular transmission, to Ananda, sheds light on the fact that in the process, what is given is the ability to release, give away, cast off. Of course Hixon is very eloquent about it, to knock down the flagpole before the gate is to forget about empty notions like "you" and "me", "here" and "there, 2teacher" and "student". In essence, the non-dual is manifested when one takes banners and labels down. The pole being this sense of self on which we rely so much and act out from, the illusion that gives birth to the ten thousands concepts, thoughts, ideas we cherish so much. In other words, what is transmitted is not a thing, or a non-thing. The treasury box opens itself to reveal its endless opening.

gassho

Taigu

[Taylor]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Hi all,

Anything other than the gold brocade robe? The idea of most people about transmission is that there is a secret element into it, a body of hidden teachings...This is the fantasy. At midnight, behind closed doors and red curtains, the teacher opens up a secret treasury box...

Ah! So you and Jundo really aren't hiding the secret to life in an old wooden chest? Suspicious...

I don't personally think Ananda received anything but the robe. Even that's debatable. What's the difference between his robe and Shakyamuni's? One was already on his body and the other descended from the sky? Two robes (or not two robes :P ) only make someone warmer on a cold night. But when one knocks down the flag pole, what could ever be cold or hot?

Gassho

[Taigu]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Not an old wooden chest, Taylor...just check the very last sentence of Dogen's Fukanzazengi.


gassho


Taigu

[Hans]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Hello all,

since right view, or a corresponding problem: delusion, are absolutely essential elements to take into account in just about all Buddhist traditions, it seems IMHO to be absolutely essential to understand how to apply the "thought medicine" that the dharma offers through some studying as well.

Just don't think the handbook is reality, or that the map is the territory.

Apparently Rumi was all buried in his books as well, until he met a Sufi called Shams who burned his books/threw them into a pond (depends on the version of the story).

If we truly had a "tabula rasa" mind, then maybe just sitting without studying would truly be enough....but by the time the average Westerner gets into Zazen, decades upon decades of assumptions, norms, values etc. have been internalized up to the point where it's hard to even recognize all the individual components to our worldviews .

Read them, apply their lessons, then burn them. Don't turn the scriptures into Mara's toilet paper through sticking to them like a fly sticks to fly paper.

Gassho,

Hans

[AlanLa]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Seems to me Ananda wanted some "thing" he thought Mahakashyapa possessed, and no matter what he did he couldn't gain this "thing." But he finally got the "idea" that they both (and everyone else) shared this non-thing. My words don't do it justice, but it's a great lesson in so many ways:
1. he (and we) already had (have) it
2. it's not about the books' words as much as it's about realizing or actualizing #1
3. labels (in the form of flagpoles) are barriers to #1
4. "Truly, much hearing is an obstacle to the Way" of #1 (or as Pink Floyd said, "Tear down the wall!")
5. you have to be your own Buddha, not somebody else's; imitation does not lead to #1

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

I need to not think about this one.
Gassho,
Soen

[BrianW]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Very busy this week and so just a couple of points that struck me.....

Ananda was a walking encyclopedia of everything the Buddha ever said yet, somehow, this was not enough. What was missing?

Interesting to speculate on this point....perhaps we can't put what was missing into words anyway?

Another perspective on this issue might be:

Both books often speak of questing for something. Ananda and Mahakshyapa were both standing in the same spot facing opposite directions, but Ananda thought he needed to take a trip. So he went on one for twenty years, basically around the Earth and the Universe with his bag of words and knowledge. Not good, not bad, just what was needed. When he finally got back to Mahakshyapa's spot he was finally looking him in the face. Sometimes a banana is ripe when it's picked, other times it just needs to sit awhile.

Gassho,
BrianW

[anista]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

A voice-hearer is not necessarily a voice-understander. Don't rely on other's words. See it for yourself.

[Silva]

Re: 7/2 TRANSMISSION of the LIGHT: to Ananda

Flagpole, thump, echo arise and fade into silence.

gassho,

Sylvie