7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

[Jundo]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

... I find it really challenging, at times, to live in the moment. Obviously this could be taken to the extreme, where living only in the moment would be absurd (e.g., not considering the future consequences of your behavior). Nevertheless, to rid oneself of anxiety for the future and regrets of the past can be quite difficult.

Yes. I have a somewhat not obvious definition of what it means to "be in the moment" in this practice:

My definition of being "in the moment" is just "being with however this life-world is at any moment". When life's roller coaster is up, go up. When heading down, head down. Just ride the ride.

Yes, coming to see the ordinary and non-special things of life as just jewels of life, both the joys and disappointments ... embracing all the ups and downs of the dream-like roller coaster ride (we are the coaster and the dreaming!) ... --is-- the most special of special ways to be.

Up down up down goes the roller coaster, and our way is to see it for the ride it is. Yippee! We even drop all thought of "up down up down" as we go "up down up down". On real roller coasters, I used to get all tight in my stomach as if twisted up ... I hated it. Then, one day, I tried Zazen on a terrifying coaster and all the tension was gone ... Now, I even like roller coasters (once I get past the stomach twistings). :wink:

This is all life ... if it is not a divorce or a sick kid or job problem, if it is not this problem or that problem or some other problem ... it would not be life! It is no joy to think so at the time, but it is true. The Buddha taught that we can be liberated amid the changes if we allow each one, embracing the ups and downs, not demanding that life move according to our standards and expectations. If we just flow along with the roller coaster ride of life's wild ride .... up down up down ... well, that bumpy ride is our life! (Still bumpy, scarey, and sometimes bringing us to tears ... but out life!) Up down up down goes the roller coaster, and our way is to see it for the ride it is ... dropping all thought of "up down up down" as we go "up down up down" Buddha ... Yippee!

That, in my view, is being "in the moment"

Gassho, J

[Tb]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

... I find it really challenging, at times, to live in the moment. Obviously this could be taken to the extreme, where living only in the moment would be absurd (e.g., not considering the future consequences of your behavior). Nevertheless, to rid oneself of anxiety for the future and regrets of the past can be quite difficult.

Yes. I have a somewhat not obvious definition of what it means to "be in the moment" in this practice:

My definition of being "in the moment" is just "being with however this life-world is at any moment". When life's roller coaster is up, go up. When heading down, head down. Just ride the ride.

Yes, coming to see the ordinary and non-special things of life as just jewels of life, both the joys and disappointments ... embracing all the ups and downs of the dream-like roller coaster ride (we are the coaster and the dreaming!) ... --is-- the most special of special ways to be.

Up down up down goes the roller coaster, and our way is to see it for the ride it is. Yippee! We even drop all thought of "up down up down" as we go "up down up down". On real roller coasters, I used to get all tight in my stomach as if twisted up ... I hated it. Then, one day, I tried Zazen on a terrifying coaster and all the tension was gone ... Now, I even like roller coasters (once I get past the stomach twistings). :wink:

This is all life ... if it is not a divorce or a sick kid or job problem, if it is not this problem or that problem or some other problem ... it would not be life! It is no joy to think so at the time, but it is true. The Buddha taught that we can be liberated amid the changes if we allow each one, embracing the ups and downs, not demanding that life move according to our standards and expectations. If we just flow along with the roller coaster ride of life's wild ride .... up down up down ... well, that bumpy ride is our life! (Still bumpy, scarey, and sometimes bringing us to tears ... but out life!) Up down up down goes the roller coaster, and our way is to see it for the ride it is ... dropping all thought of "up down up down" as we go "up down up down" Buddha ... Yippee!

That, in my view, is being "in the moment"

Gassho, J

Hi.

_/_
Yes.
But not to forget, the important thing is to be in this moment, not chasing after others...
To be here (and there at the same time) and not wander off.
As someone put it, When this happens, do this! When that happens do that!

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Jundo]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

_/_
Yes.
But not to forget, the important thing is to be in this moment, not chasing after others...
To be here (and there at the same time) and not wander off.
As someone put it, When this happens, do this! When that happens do that!

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Yes but but ... as I often say, sometimes to be "in this moment" means that we are to be "in this moment planning the future, or learning from the past". I sometimes say something like this ...

[Folks encounter lots of Zen teachings like the one mentioned by Master Seung Sahn, "when you eat, just eat. When you sleep just sleep..."] But I think that Master Seung Sahn's phrasing, like many Zen books and expressions, can sound rather idealistic if it implies that we must be "mindful" or in "Zen Mind" 24/7. My view is more balanced I think, namely, "when mindful of one thing, just be mindful of one thing ... when distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, just be distracted, overwrought and multi-task". There is a time for everything, and we cannot be "mindful" each minute. All of it is life.

However, one of the great fruits of our Zen Practice is that, even when we are distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, feeling completely miserable and off balance ... and even when "Zen Mind" feels very far away ... we can still know it is 'there' even if we do not feel it at that moment [the blue sky always behind the clouds]. So I say, when feeling completely "miserable and off balance", just be "miserable and off balance" in that moment ... it too is a temporary state of mind.

So, in other words, have a balanced and realistic view of life ... even a balanced view of sometimes or frequently being unbalanced, overworked, distracted and such.

When falling on your butt in the mud because you were thinking about "mindfulness" ... JUST DO THAT! IT TOO IS A PERFECT ACT IN THAT MOMENT!!

and

[T]o survive in life we have to think about outcomes, tomorrow, yesterday and even multi-task sometimes! So, we cannot live much or most of the time just focusing on one thing at once! Thus, our Zen Practice allows us another way of "mindfulness", also what I describe as operating on a couple of channels that (to a non-Buddhist) might seem in conflict or contradictory. We can, for example, think of future or past on one channel, while being "timeless" and "in the moment" on another. We can have "goals" and "no goals" at the same time, think about the hoped for outcome and drop all though of outcome ... all at the same time (non-attainment).

It means we can get lots of stuff done ... while knowing that there is nothing to do, nothing that needs doing.

[Tb]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

_/_
Yes.
But not to forget, the important thing is to be in this moment, not chasing after others...
To be here (and there at the same time) and not wander off.
As someone put it, When this happens, do this! When that happens do that!

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Yes but but ... as I often say, sometimes to be "in this moment" means that we are to be "in this moment planning the future, or learning from the past". I sometimes say something like this ...

[Folks encounter lots of Zen teachings like the one mentioned by Master Seung Sahn, "when you eat, just eat. When you sleep just sleep..."] But I think that Master Seung Sahn's phrasing, like many Zen books and expressions, can sound rather idealistic if it implies that we must be "mindful" or in "Zen Mind" 24/7. My view is more balanced I think, namely, "when mindful of one thing, just be mindful of one thing ... when distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, just be distracted, overwrought and multi-task". There is a time for everything, and we cannot be "mindful" each minute. All of it is life.

However, one of the great fruits of our Zen Practice is that, even when we are distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, feeling completely miserable and off balance ... and even when "Zen Mind" feels very far away ... we can still know it is 'there' even if we do not feel it at that moment [the blue sky always behind the clouds]. So I say, when feeling completely "miserable and off balance", just be "miserable and off balance" in that moment ... it too is a temporary state of mind.

So, in other words, have a balanced and realistic view of life ... even a balanced view of sometimes or frequently being unbalanced, overworked, distracted and such.

When falling on your butt in the mud because you were thinking about "mindfulness" ... JUST DO THAT! IT TOO IS A PERFECT ACT IN THAT MOMENT!!

and

[T]o survive in life we have to think about outcomes, tomorrow, yesterday and even multi-task sometimes! So, we cannot live much or most of the time just focusing on one thing at once! Thus, our Zen Practice allows us another way of "mindfulness", also what I describe as operating on a couple of channels that (to a non-Buddhist) might seem in conflict or contradictory. We can, for example, think of future or past on one channel, while being "timeless" and "in the moment" on another. We can have "goals" and "no goals" at the same time, think about the hoped for outcome and drop all though of outcome ... all at the same time (non-attainment).

It means we can get lots of stuff done ... while knowing that there is nothing to do, nothing that needs doing.

Hi.
Yes.
I often get the feeling that people get "to be in this moment" as something diasttached from That moment.
You mustn't forget that you can be in "THIS moment planning/learning for/from THAT moment", but the important thing to remember is "BEING in THIS moment planning/learning for/from that moment".
And maybe as important when planning/learning is just planning/learning.
It's all interconnected.

And thinking about "mindfulness" instead of doing it... :roll: :lol:
It's a little like missing the point, yes?

So i like to say When this happens, do this! When that happens do that!
When thinking of a lot of stuff, think of a lot of stuff, when doing a lot of stuff, do a lot of stuff.

And on another thought "we can have this and that"...
I pondering about the can...
Am i opening a can of worms, when saying "we ARE having this and that", maybe not just empasizing the other?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Jundo]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

Hey again,

A couple of folks wrote to ask me, after I posted the following ... "well, since you are saying it is "okay" sometimes to be miserable and overwrought and off balance in life, and since I am miserable and overwrought and off balance a lot of the time already, WHY PRACTICE?"

Well, the point is this:

Before we Practice, life throws us up and down.

While and after we Practice, life throws us up and down.

However, through Practice, we simultaneously come to appreciate ... that there is no "up" or "down".

In doing so, we may go up and down (for such is to be human) ... yet be perfectly still about going up and down.

That includes times when we are perfectly still about not always feeling still ... because we will not always feel still at times in life (alhough we will be feelings of "stillness" much more than without Practice).

Something like that.

[Folks encounter lots of Zen teachings like the one mentioned by Master Seung Sahn, "when you eat, just eat. When you sleep just sleep..."] But I think that Master Seung Sahn's phrasing, like many Zen books and expressions, can sound rather idealistic if it implies that we must be "mindful" or in "Zen Mind" 24/7. My view is more balanced I think, namely, "when mindful of one thing, just be mindful of one thing ... when distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, just be distracted, overwrought and multi-task". There is a time for everything, and we cannot be "mindful" each minute. All of it is life.

However, one of the great fruits of our Zen Practice is that, even when we are distracted, overwrought and multi-tasking, feeling completely miserable and off balance ... and even when "Zen Mind" feels very far away ... we can still know it is 'there' even if we do not feel it at that moment [the blue sky always behind the clouds]. So I say, when feeling completely "miserable and off balance", just be "miserable and off balance" in that moment ... it too is a temporary state of mind.

So, in other words, have a balanced and realistic view of life ... even a balanced view of sometimes or frequently being unbalanced, overworked, distracted and such.

When falling on your butt in the mud because you were thinking about "mindfulness" ... JUST DO THAT! IT TOO IS A PERFECT ACT IN THAT MOMENT!!

[BrianW]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

Jundo and Fugen,
Nice discussion on “being in the moment.” I would only add one point in response to why practice if we will still have feelings being off balance. In Zen Mind Beginners’ Mind Suzuki Roshi states,

The reason everything looks beautiful is because it out of balance, but its background is always in perfect harmony.

My take on this is that life is by its very nature out of balance and without practice Norm Fischer states we experience true anguish and despair. With practice, the “out of balance nature of life” is cast on the background of emptiness, which we experience during zazen. Thus, with practice we may still suffer, but our suffering is recontextualized.

Gassho,
BrianW

[Tb]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

Hi.

We are in consensus.

But i will add this.

Before enlightenment, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.
With enlightenment, mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers.
After enlightenment, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers.

And i will add that if you are in a rollercoasterwagon, you are still (sitting in the wagon), while at the same time moving with the cart.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[John]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

1.16 This is so like what Jesus said in the bible:

..Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them.

Luke 12:22-24
Norman Fischer talks about when he decided to take the step of depending on donations for support. So why don't we all do it? Well, we can't do it if we have families - can't impose it on others. But it isn't really necessary for al of us as he also seems to say in 1.20.

1.17

Without forcing yourself not to use such language, if you realize it is bad, you will be able to reform gradually.

Yes, seeing through our thoughts and actions, becoming conscious of them is the main thing rather than forcing ourselves to adhere to a standard that sounds a good idea. I wonder what Dogen had in his mind that he described as lewd? Probably a lot different than we imagine.

1.18 These teachings keep reminding me of the teachings of Jesus. He says something like this about the spirit of giving, that the left hand shouldn't know what the the right hand is doing. It is not real charity if we do it for future profit for ourselves.

1.19 Looks like the monks were more concerned about their standing in the community than about helping people. We have to adopt roles in life but must be careful not to play them too rigidly.

1.20

Yet we have to take into consideration the customs and the conditions of each country. In whatever situation, we should choose what is best for the benefit of living beings in the long run and for the progress of our own practice.

So, in 21st century Western countries, begging might be entirely inappropriate and it might be " best for the benefit of living beings" to be an ordinary householder
holding down a job.

Gassho,
Doshin

[John]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

Or you could live like this guy!

http://men.style.com/details/features/l ... ntent_9817

Gassho,
Doshin

[Dosho]

Re: 7/24 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-16 to 1-20

Some thoughts:

1-16 -- As Jundo mentioned, these are really aimed at monks who are leaving the world behind and not for lay practice, but I think the lessons of humility and simple living are just as apt for us who are still in the midst of "worldly affairs". Being too caught up in instant news feeds on the internet and obsessively gathering information can lead us away from the cushion. Fame and fortune have taken on new meaning in the past decade and with reality TV anyone can succumb to such allure. It's really about our basic needs, caring for them (and the needs of our family) and then directing energies towards others and practice.

1-17 -- I agree with what someone else said about lewd talk having a very different meaning when these talks were recorded, but it does leave an obvious parallel to rumor mills and idle talk we've all been exposed to in our daily lives. I admit I do this as much as anyone, but try my best to redirect my time and energy to more productive tasks. The last paragraph mentions that "coarse and violent actions" can be good things now and again which made me chuckle since my son recently started becoming the "bad word" police. I tried explaining to him that the words in and of themselves are not bad...that it is how they are used and that sometimes their use is appropriate in very limited circumstances.

1-18 -- This one seemed pretty straightforward to me in that a tendency I have had is wanting recognition for things I have done to help others and when I've made mistakes to not tell anyone. Basically, reverse that and, if you can't, your ego is attached to what people think of you. Taking this to an extreme would be just as ridiculous in actively trying to hide our good deeds and telling everyone we meet everything we have ever done wrong, but the point is made...watch that pesky self and it's ego drive. Also, don't make snap judgments about others...give to all, don't discriminate.

1-19 -- This section seems similar to the one preceeding it. If someone asks for help, help them! As a person who overthinks EVERYTHING I can find myself in a near overload when someone asks for my assistance. If the deed is an honest one but still you worry about how it will affect you, that's your ego getting in the way again. Will X think bad of me if I praise Y? And never think yourself too good for anything because of your practice...one of the best ways to return after straying from the path is doing the most basic things in life. We are above nothing.

1-20 -- I have often wondered if I knew I was going to die tomorrow would I spend a moment thereafter with my practice? Would I really go about the day before my death as if nothing was different from the moment before I learned my fate? Since life doesn't work like that I think it largely unecessary to provide a response, but it is a way of assessing how attached we are to this life and all the things in it. I think most people find it very hard to consider the ramifications of their actions 100 years from now since that requires thoughts of our demise. I try to think twice about doing something like cutting down a tree since it could outlive me...what does my desire to cut it down mean then? The point? We aren't on an island apart from everything else....our need to own and control things will mean nothing after we are dead, so does it really matter while we are alive?

Gassho,
Dosho