7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

[Rich]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-13
"Just understand what you see right now is buddha. If you continually reform your discriminating mind and fundamental attachment in this way according to your teacher’s instruction, you will naturally become one with the Way

Thinking is just a representation, without thinking there is no discrimination.

[Jen]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-13

Quit projecting your own internalized image of how things should be. A teacher is a teacher and won't necessarily fit into your preconceived notion.

1-14

Jut sit. (On a side note, nice to see Dogen's mind wandered while practicing zazen, though it did wander on the topic of zazen!)

1-15

This seems to be about avoiding rashness, think actions through instead of acting upon emotions.

[Rich]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-14
"When it was extremely hot or cold, monks there stopped sitting for a while because they were afraid of getting sick. At the time, I thought to myself, “I may become sick and die. Still, I should just practice zazen. What is the use of clinging to this body? How can I refrain from practice when I am not sick? Dying from illness because of practice accords with my original wish. "

The body and mind are real but the clinging and grasping is a big mistake. So just practice zazen asap.

[tonyyeung]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Dear Jundo sensei:

1-11, i know that zazen are always relax, not hurry, and not do too much anytime, so i think here is what Dogen Roshi try to tell us how to we should keep in our mind.

1-12, it remain me that if we see someone suffering no food, too poor or sick, we should do as we can to help the suffer, not even we may start Dependent origination. we may drop to rinne.

1-13, i remember that buddha will change to different form or different character to help the suffering Sentient beings leave the suffering. so in this chapter we shouldn't to keep our discriminating minds to any Sentient beings, they all are buddha.

1-14, i guess here is why japanese soto head temple keep that in mind to train the young priest in there, they need to know in short time to got the suffering feeling: cold and hot, hungry and tired, to teach them even human life are so tough, zazen can keep them quiet, clam and find the path to buddha.

Gassho Tony yeung

[Tb]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Hi.

1-14

Even people in the secular world must concentrate on one thing and learn it thoroughly enough to be able to do it in front of others rather than learn many things at the same time, without truly accomplishing any of them.

One thing at a time...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Tb]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Hi.

1-15

It is rather easy to lay down one’s own life, and cut off one’s flesh, hands, or feet in an emotional outburst. Considering worldly affairs, we see many people do such things even for the sake of attachment to fame and personal profit.

This is true not only in the "seculiar world" but also in the more "religious" one...

Yet it is most difficult to harmonize the mind, meeting various things and situations moment by moment.

As i said in a previous post, one thing at a time.

A student of the Way must cool his mind as if he were giving up his life, and consider if what he is about to say or do is in accordance with reality or not. If it is, he should say or do it.

To quote chet (disastermouse) viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1833#p25926

The key here is to determine the appropriateness of the reaction.

How true.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Rich]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-15
"Yet it is most difficult to harmonize the mind, meeting various things and situations moment by moment. A student of the Way must cool his mind as if he were giving up his life, and consider if what he is about to say or do is in accordance with reality or not. If it is, he should say or do it."

I need to watch and listen right now and not be lost in delusion. then my words and action may be based in reality.

[torotech]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-11 to 1-15
Just Sit
Let Go

Warm Regards,
Brian

[Dosho]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Hi all,

Once again posting late in the thread for the usual reasons. Here goes:

1-11: While I don't think that Dogen means that we should literally give up literature and poetry. If he was I think the title of this book would be "Put down this book and go sit zazen...and other things my master told me to do (or not do)". Like previous sections I do think he is providing a warning that even the dharma can be clung to in a way that is not consistent with its teachings. We can become obessed with what we think we know and telling everyone what we think we know while not actually understanding the dharma. It is not a contest to see who knows more...it is not a race to see who can best the other. Even in the things we hold most dear we can be led astray from the path.

1-12: Again, trying not to take Dogen literally...or is he saying we should laugh if about to be executed? Perhaps if we are dying for a just cause, but I took from this a lesson in doing what we feel is right even if there will be consequences to face later...as long as we are ready and willing to face them. Clearly, Enju was willing to face them and accepted the eventual outcome...without doing so our learning means nothing.

1-13: At first I thought this section was saying that one should always obey a teacher, but I think it's more about always being prepared to allow what your teacher says to be fully accepted into your experience. Some would hold tightly to something they had learned before and could not conceive of a different meaning. I think this is a common tendency since otherwise we would wonder aimlessly accepting everything we are told. So, be ready to unlearn just as much as you are ready to learn. In this and many other zen stories it seems like a matter of life or death and we must be willing for every moment to be our last. That will be very hard for me to do, but I'm willing to make an effort if asked by my teachers....the willingness and effort is the point.

1-14: Someone referred to this as a lesson for those who tend to be a "jack of all trades" and I consider myself to have been very much that kind of person. I'd always be afraid to choose one thing and even when I did I'd wonder if I had chosen poorly. This weight on my mind both before and after my selection led to learning a little about a lot of things rather than a lot about a few things. That perspective hasn't served me very well up to now, so I am ready to try something different. Also, as someone who is still a bit phobic about becoming sick I have thought there are times when lying down to sleep was better than zazen, but Dogen would seem to take a different view. Is zazen always the thing to do? Perhaps...but I'm not there just yet.

1-15: Just Do It!* ok, take a minute to collect yourself...then Just Do It!*

* "Just Do It!" is a registered tradmark of Nike, Inc. and may not be transmitted or reproduced in any form without the express written consent of Nike, Master Dogen, and the Commissioner of Major League Baseball.

Gassho,
Dosho

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Hm, I'm pretty late.

1-14: Just sit. Stay with just sitting. No matter what's the situation, just sit on the cushion.

1-15: It's easy to destroy, but hard (or maybe impossible) to repair the damage, that is done. So it's important to keep a calm mind and act according to the situation.

[BrianW]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Hello all,

I have been away from any internet access and will again be away for the few days, but I would like to try and play catch up.

In this section I was particularly struck by 1-13 and the hundred-foot pole example. Climbing to the top letting go, and advancing one step, conjured up a sense of the “to the marrow” acceptance and goalessness we aspire to in zazen.

Gassho,
BrianW

[Jundo]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Climbing to the top letting go, and advancing one step, conjured up a sense of the “to the marrow” acceptance and goalessness we aspire to in zazen.

Gassho,
BrianW

Do we accept the world as-it-is ... or does the world accept us as-we-are ...

Or with self and world forgotten ... is there just-the-acceptance