7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

[Jundo]

Hi Readers,

This week, our study involves several cautions on not reading and studying too much (such as in 1-11, 1-14 ).

All this concern, coming from Dogen ... a man who was one of the most widely read, scholarly and literate individuals in the Buddhism of his day. Another Koan!

Gassho, Jundo

[Tb]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Hi.

1-11

Ask yourself, is he saying "don't read" or does he say "don't be attached to the words"?

And i got stuck on this one...

samsara which means transmigration within the six realms of delusions

Thats a new explanation...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Rich]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-11
"Impermanence is also usually used in a negative sense, though Dogen quoted the Sixth Patriarch in Shobogenzo Bussho (Buddha-nature), “Therefore, grass, trees, and bushes are impermanent, and are nothing but Buddha-nature. Human beings and things, body and mind are impermanent, and are nothing but Buddha-nature. The earth, mountains, and rivers are impermanent, because they are Buddha-nature. Supreme awareness (Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi) is impermanent, since it is Buddha-nature. The great Nirvana is Buddha-nature since it is impermanent.”

I liked the footnote best because it made clearer this Buddha-nature. Is Buddha-nature permanent?

[Jundo]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-11

Since literature and poetry are useless, you should give them up.

Except that Dogen never gave poetry up throughout his life ... that fellow could (in a positive way) talk out of both sides of a no-sided mouth!

Probably good to give them up during intensive practice periods in a monastery, for example.

Here are some classic Dogen poems ...

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 0Dogen.htm

And a book, though rather technical, on the subject ...

http://www.dharma.net/monstore/product_ ... ts_id=1378

[Jen]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-11
I'm going to take this a step further than is probably meant, but I think it makes a good lesson none the less.
Poetry and literature are not useless per se, but they should never be used for constant escapism. We've all either been or known that person that use books, movies, or other forms of passive entertainment to try and escape the here and now. Goes with the saying 'you only have one life so live it'. The same goes for studying Buddhism- yes it is important, but don't get so tied up in studying that we don't practice. Active living, not passive living. Sitting may seem passive at times, but it is an active pursuit.

1-12
A Buddhist Robin Hood story Straight forward, even with the tricky ethics of stealing from the government. We should all aspire to put the our necks out for others and for the Buddha-dharma at least once.

[John]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1.11 "Knowledge puffs up, love builds up" as it says in the Bible. He is also reinforcing the point he made in 1.5 about the dangers of studying too widely instead of deeply.

!.12 An example of breaking a precept (against stealing) but being justified in doing so. Giving away your life to help others is the ultimate form of self-sacrifice. But there aren't too many of us ready to become Bodhisattvas.

1.13 There seem to be two points here. One is the danger of setting up the Buddha or others as deities, thus making a separation between them and us that excuses us from having to realise the Buddha nature in ourselves. The hundred foot pole koan signifies to me the difficulty of moving past our habitual self-protective practices.. of opening ourselves to the the problems and suffering of others...of removing the armour that protects our hearts from hurt from others.

1.14 So, when we narrow down our focus and give up distracting activities, the one practice we should devote ourselves to is zazen.

1.15 No flashy, showy achievements required - how we love to arouse admiration and praise from others! But just cool steady day by day persistent practice without seeking any gain is what is needed.

Gassho,
Doshin

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-11: My take on this is: It's good to know the theory, but you gotta put it into action. And while doing this, do only this. All the studies won't take you just one step further without actually taking the step.

1-12: Whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly.

[Tobiishi]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

On 1-11:
I don't agree with this. We have time in this life to learn and do a great deal, and both are inherently good.

On 1-12:
Moral of the story: people acting on profound motivations should expect to be occasionally beheaded. It still happens today.

On 1-13:
The idea of putting trust in the teacher's method here sheds light on 1-11... maybe Dogen was thinking of the same bunch of overeager busybodies when he wrote both chapters.

On 1-14:
sit.

On 1-15:
This chapter could be seen as an extension of 1-11 and 1-14... the capping reason for his admonishing against excessive learning. Maybe if I didn't jump on every new subject with both feet, I could walk a straight line.

gassho,
tobiishi

[Rich]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-12
"When the Imperial envoy brought him out to cut off his head, he did not show regret or grief; rather he looked joyful. He said to himself, “I give this life to all living beings.”

Only by being totally unattached in the moment could he have been joyful and said that. Enju is my hero. The will to live must be life itself in this moment.

[Myoshin]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-11

When I read this I thought of Zen Mind Beginner's Mind's "Zen and Excitement". I remember when I first started to practice, I got really pumped about Zen. I was enthralled. But then I really started to practice... and became bored with it. I only saw the fluff of Zen, the stuff of large santori experience and farting lotus blossoms. But I also think that this section was about, like others said, not to be just focused on the books. They are important but so it taking the words and turning them into proper practice. If only there was a term for a balance between the two... oh wait 8)

Gassho,
Kyle

[Cameron]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-11: I think this comment might be aimed at lay people of the past. Back in olden-times, people had to work very hard all day (not just 8 hours in an air conditioned office)... so in what little free time one had, Dogen suggests that one "just practice the Buddha-Way and study the buddha-dharma". Why? Because it is the most important thing and we are alive for only a "short while". I don't think this is advice to Monks because they would already be doing it.

For modern times it's a different story, of course. We have much more time for education and a lot of it is necessary, even mandatory... I think the main thing is that we should be careful not to study "the words" too much because in these times it is so much easier to do so. The Internet can compound this problem of "over-education".

I don't have any idea how much buddha-dharma study is necessary. I do my 30 minute sits twice a day... and read as I feel like it. I think I've learned, recently, if I really really really want to know the answer that I can't find... that's too much studying and it's time to give up and sit.

Cam

[Tb]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Hi.

1-12

A quote comes to mind...

I may be bad... but I feel gooood.

- sheila , Army of Darkness

But the question is, who decides what is good or bad?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-11:
For modern times it's a different story, of course. We have much more time for education and a lot of it is necessary, even mandatory...

I think 1-11 has a lot to offer for the people of today too. Especially in the west we have a mentality that you can just buy yourself into everything. So if you have a hard job, do a lot of work in the office and at home and do not have time to "practice that zazen-stuff", just go and buy the ebook or download an audible version to your ipod so you can get enlightenment while commuting ... rather not.

I do not mean to say that education is not necessary, so I am with what you said.
But I think it's nice to be reminded that there is such a large emphasis on the actual practice of zazen on AND off the cushion.

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

1-13: To me this is about one's expectations of how the Buddha, the teacher or zazen (or our whole life) has to be. It's another take on the basic insight of how suffering starts and how we can overcome it.

What strikes me is the last paragraph. The picture of the pole is making sense, but what is the one further step? Is the climbing a life of practice and the next step the expression that death is another step on the way too?

[Tb]

Re: 7/17 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-11 to 1-15

Hi.

1-13.

This one is a important one.

First off, what is a "teacher"?
A teacher is something that teaches something to something.
http://fugenblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/w ... acher.html

In the tradition of the patriarchs, the true way of understanding dharma-talks [on Zen practice] is to gradually reform what you have known and thought by following your teacher’s instruction.

How does "follow your teacher" correspond with "be a lamp unto yourself"?

Students today, however, cling to their own discriminating minds. Their thinking is based on their own personal views that buddha must be such and such; if it goes against their ideas, they say that buddha cannot be that way.

To quote another master: "Don't separate between hot and cold"

Mtfbwy
Fugen