7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

[Dojin]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-5

after reading the last part i must agree again with Dogen. to put effort in to one thing instead of many is good... but to forget about it and just let it be, it is the way to practice. just sit, just walk, just practice, just be.

Gassho, Daniel.

[John]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Sorry for the late post - I only noticed the thread this evening. I have the 'Soto Zen Primer' version of this but have never read much of it because it seemed so archaic and weird to me. I haven't said anything that hasn't come up already I think.

1.1 Think I understand this one. It is good to have reverence and respect for our ancestors but we shouldn't put too much emphasis on rituals. Shikantaza is the most important practice for us. Funny how people often either slavishly follow rules at retreats while others find them very off-putting.

!.2

It seems that Dogen sought the middle-way, that is keeping the precepts without clinging to them, without expectation of some reward from observing them.

Sums it up for me but I worry that I am far too self indulgent. wonder what Dogen would make of our Western lifestyle?

1.3 I find this one difficult. The bit about being ' possessed by demons ' reminds me of similar strange teachings in Christianity. But I guess we have to remember that these teachings were written in a pre-scientific culture.

1.4

In order to depart from egocentric self, seeing impermanence is the primary necessity.

Thinking about this....yes, I suppose that the ego does try to create a solid separate being for itself that can be seen through by meditating on impermanence.
"If you..... cling to your own preferences, you will sink lower and lower. " 'The great way is easy if only you don't cling to preferences.'

1.5 A good teaching for me. I read and dabble in so many subjects and disciplines instead of concentrating on trying to attain a deeper mastery of Zen.

Gassho,
Doshin

[Jinho]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Sorry for the late post - I only noticed the thread this evening. I have the 'Soto Zen Primer' version of this but have never read much of it because it seemed so archaic and weird to me. I
Gassho,
Doshin

Maybe if you post the bits you think are weird, the rest of us can have a great time un-weirding them for you? Well, we'd certainly have fun, I don't know if you would.

cheers,
rowna/jinho

[John]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Well, it has come up already. I don't like supernatural stuff so when they begin to talk about spirits and demons I want to run a mile. But I suppose that that is the way things were explained in those days whereas nowadays we would have a psychological explanantion that will seem equally weird to people centuries from now,

Gassho,
John

[Tobiishi]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

On 1-1:
When I bow before zazen, what is before me becomes worthy of reverence, whether it is my altar with statue, or a ragged dog toy on the floor. I try to give equal consideration no matter what it is. This helps me balance the (non)importance of material things.

"...reverence of images and relics will certainly bring blessings to human and heavenly beings 7 equal to paying reverence to the living Buddha." -1-1
If we consider all living beings as buddhas, then following this advice will surely add to the compassion in the world.

On 1-2:
This one reminds me of Christians fighting over whether one should be held strictly accountable to the Ten Commandments, or forgiven daily for being so despicable a sinner that its impossible to obey them. Dogen of course promotes moderation here (which I would have done well to heed a few weeks ago) that still applies today- this also follows 1-1 in not becoming atached to the Precepts as a way to enlightenment- they can be considered a relic in the right light.

On 1-3:
superstition is timeless.
demons with fingers in my hair
are still my demons-
time to shave my head.

On 1-4:
Freedom from greed, departing from the egocentric self, seeing impermanence... these are three layers which have varying thicknesses in people and times. The layers don't change, therefore the tasks of teacher and student don't change- just the time and energy spent on each layer.

On 1-5:
It is more possible today to gain wide knowledge and study extensively, by a very wide margin. I put a good deal of energy into it myself. I have yet to regret the time spent, but I'm open to the possibility. The very act of sitting zazen is a refutation of the manic pursuit of more, and I'm rather enjoying it.

gassho
tobiishi

[Shonin]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Okay life has finally settled enough so I could begin reading. Sorry for coming in so late.

1-1: As with others , I saw the theme of attachment here. I think this talk a warning against being to externalized in practice. Everything is internal and external. Don't get so trapped in the external things that we forget our inner growth and understanding.

A value I agree with that I see here is to respect tradition and to honor it for the right reason, but do not cling to it or expect that by praising statues and appealing to universal beings we are going to just up and become enlightened or wise. But of course, do not forget the place of such things or make light of them either.

1-2: I think this section speaks not only of shikantaza as a primary practice, but as a reminder that to cling too much to the precepts is still a form of attachment. As with section 1-1 I believe the Precepts to be like the material things. They alone are not the cornerstone of practice. BUT, they do coincide with other aspects of practice and work synergistically with them, each practice helping to reinforce the other practices.

As with with open box in 1-1, watch for snakes!

1-3: Okay, I have to admit, this one threw me for a loop and not so sure what to make of it, even after reading it a few times. If eating the meat is feeding demons then why is it allowed when one is sick? Isn't that aiding a demon possessing a monk and therefore detrimental to the monk? Perhaps it is a reflection of the fact that eating meat is not in line with compassionate living but the master is accepting because the situation is what it is and it is the illness causing the monks to live in this fashion?*shrug* I do feel dim with this one.

1-4: This one kind of hits home for various reasons. To me, it is a reminder to not get a big head about the Way. Expect changes! And don't play a Jack-of-all-trades.
When we dedicate ourselves to a smaller area of expertise we become much better at this smaller area than if we try to learn and develop every bit of information or skill that life offers.

It is also a lesson that in order to improve we have to let go of the idea we have no room for improvement.If your cup gets too full...empty it.

Practice to practice, not to impress others or recieve some kind of acknowledgement or reward. Don't seek to be the next great Zen Master, just practice and whatever praise comes comes, what ever praise doesn't come doesn't come. Be okay with that. It's not a pissing contest of who is wiser than who. Or who is more impressive to others.

Don't be resistant to change, if we are resistant to change then we can't learn or grow. Let go of our stubborness in thinking we have the answers. And always remember we don't know it all and can always improve.Coming to practice is different from life before practice. So go with the flow instead of trying to stay where you are.

1-5: This is to me another warning of over-extending one's self in the quest for knowledge and wisdom. Too much is just too much. Reading is one thing but experience is the real teacher. Don't get a big head in thinking of making changes to the practice. Do as you are told to do because that is the only way you will learn the value of doing it in that fashion.

Dave

[Dosho]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

It is also a lesson that in order to improve we have to let go of the idea we have no room for improvement.If your cup gets too full...empty it.

Gassho...

[torotech]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Hi All,

Sorry for my late start I just received the book yesterday. Thanks to all the previous posters - I immensely enjoyed reading them.

I have 2 questions
1. In 1-3, Is there symbolism to the demon that took the monks food? Was this demon "attachment"? I.E. was the monk attached to the idea that eating meat would make him better?

2. In 1-5, Is the key word here "extensive"? Is normal study ok, but extensive study can become a hindrance? This brings to mind people in the professional world who are so intense on studying and learning that they forget practice and hands-on training / learning by experience are often the best methods for advancing your level of understanding.

Kind Regards,
Brian