7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

[KellyRok]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Hello all,

1-1:

"Open the box and look inside" - take a really good look inside yourself and see the truth. Is worshipping a statue/a relic going to get you any closer to enlightenment? If you believe it does then you are poisoning yourself with an illusion. You become the barrier to your own path. Your mind becomes the snake/the demon.

It is okay to show reverence to the Buddha's image...but don't become attached to the magic your mind would have you believe it holds.

1-2:

We should follow the precepts just as our ancestors, they help guide us on the path. As Jundo has told us before, they are guide signs to help us go in the right direction. :wink: Sitting zazen is the very foundation, that is the path...

Long, fun, but tiring weekend...hope this made sense.

Gassho,
Jinmei

[em]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

In many ways 1-2 repeats the theme of 1-1 in that Dogen again points out that zazen must be our primary practice and that we in zazen work with much the same things that we do in other practices, only more focused. I suppose this, as someone pointed out, must be read in context. Dogen might have seen the need to put more emphasis on zazen because other practices had a larger emphasis. For many of us in the west we must not take this as a hint to neglect our work with the precepts since our emphasis is often on zazen. Hence the correct balance of practice is always contextual.

Another of Dogens points here is that although much in life is much like zazen it can't replace zazen.

All the best,
em

[dumm]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Hello,


1-1: Everyone seems to agree that the idea of holding relics or statues up as a way to achieve enlightenment is false. We should respect them no doubt but it is the teachings and zazen that really help up to discover the way and the truth.

1-2: Sounds to me similar to the first. The rules and regulations have a purpose and are there for good reason. They have been developed and changed through the years through practice and examination. Just like the statutes and relics. They serve a purpose as well. For some of us they remind us to be mindful or of the teachings. Still...they are only one aspect of the whole experience. By sitting zazen we experience them all together. Again....more guidlines

1-3: This one puzzled me a bit. Is one to avoid eating meat? This seems to be a precept or it has been interpreted this way it seems by many. Yet, I think that humans are naturally inclined to eat meat. So, based off of the previous two points....should one hold on loosely to this precept or regulation?

1-4: This one hit home for me. I find myself dealing with the desire for fame and profit. I have been thinking about it most recently. Practicing zazen for its own self devoid of ego. Wow...takes a lot of work.

1-5: I feel that I must try to learn as much as possible and try all kinds of hobbies. Of course this never works out. Try to learn what you can about what your doing. Stop trying to know it all. Its ok and you can never know it all. If your doing zazen then do zazen. if your going to practice Buddhism...then practice IT.

Gassho,
Dave

[Shugen]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Some things that stood out for me:
1-1

Since being the Buddha’s child 10 is following the Buddha’s teachings and reaching buddhahood 11 directly, we must devote ourselves to following the teaching and put all our efforts into the practice of the Way.

1-2

Although keeping them is good, we should not take them as the primary practice. I don’t mean to say, however, that you should break the precepts and become self-indulgent. Clinging to such an attitude is an evil view and not that of a Buddhist practitioner.

1-4

Many people in the world want to have a good reputation and to be appreciated not only by others but also by themselves. However they are not always well spoken of or praised

1-5

Concentrate your efforts on one practice

It's still incredible to me that such seeming simple things can become so complicated when someone tries to truly follow them. I love that Dogen keeps hammering the idea of the middle path - "don't get too attached to your ideas of right and wrong" "the precepts are important, but don't idealize them". To me, that attitude is what makes zen buddhism feel like such a living, vibrant thing.

Ron

[Myoshin]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-2: Rules help aid in a deeper understanding of things, but like others have said rules are just rules and should not be anything else. These are not commandments or rules that will damn you if you break them. they are aids in teaching. It kinda reminds me of the old expression, "What do we do when we fall of the horse?" We get back on. You do not know what falling is like without actually falling. By falling off the horse we have learned something. By breaking a rule or in this case a precept I believe one has a deeper learning experience, as long as we get back on the horse.

1-3: I am a meat eater... but I do respect where and what the meat came from. The effort that was put into it. From the raising of the animal to the butchering and finally to the preparation of its flesh. I think that it is natural to eat meat but if others wish not to, then it is no skin off my nose. I think that it is all in interpretation of the actual precept.

Gassho,
Kyle

[em]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

In 1-3 Dogen seems to externalize the need to eat meat - it is the demon, not the monk, eating it. One interpretation is that the monk is driven by delusions and attachments to eat meat.

Before eating a part of my practice is to think through how the food has gotten onto my plate and in that I must consider the impact and suffering of that process. I am a vegan because raising, tormenting and killing individuals creates great suffering.

But trying to save innumerable beings from suffering also means making myself aware of factors like living and working conditions and social, economical and environmental impact. That means farming and transporting soy might also create great suffering. Just as it is impossible to live without creating suffering, it is almost impossible to find food or clothes that haven't in some way created suffering.

It is like a koan. We must eat to live, we must clothe ourselves, but in doing so we support and create the very suffering we vow to end. Discussing such suffering almost always creates suffering. In matters of life, death and torment there seems to be precious little calm and joy. In decreasing suffering, we increase suffering.

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-3: I think the eating of meat is not the main point here. To me it's about a situation is not what it seems on the first glance. The master seems to know that there is something going on with the monk who behaves strange in eating meat, so he is looking deeper, taking another perspective you might say and finally he realizes that there is a demon around. So maybe this is an analogy that reminds us to really "look" at the things in/through our zazen practice.

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-4: This chapter seems to be quite concrete in it's message. It reminded me to look at my true motivation when acting "selfless". Is it really an act of "no self" or is it rather something I think I should do to gain something else?

[Jen]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1:3
This one baffles me a bit. The demon could be the monks attachment to meat. I also see it as an attachment to the precepts. The master is attached to the precepts, and he overcomes his own attachment in letting the monk eat meat. While the demon seems to afflict the monk, it is the master's demon teaching him the lesson of non-attachment--even to the precepts.

1:4
If you are born into a family of master carpenter's, and you choose to go into the family business, you still have to learn how to be a carpenter. You aren't born knowing about it even if both your parents are skilled carpenter's. The path of Buddhism is the same way. Do not think you know everything because you have practiced a few years, read a few books, and talked to a few masters. There are still things to learn and masters still have things to teach. In other words, don't be a know-it-all.

[will]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Kyle
"What do we do when we fall of the horse?"

Zoolander

Gassho

W

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1:4
If you are born into a family of master carpenter's, and you choose to go into the family business, you still have to learn how to be a carpenter. You aren't born knowing about it even if both your parents are skilled carpenter's. The path of Buddhism is the same way. Do not think you know everything because you have practiced a few years, read a few books, and talked to a few masters.

What a nice reminder that we are all beginners all the time. Haven't thought about it when I read 1-4 though, but it fits nicely indeed.

1-5:
There is a lot to be found in here:
"Do not go for any goal in zazen" comes to mind.
One should not raise oneself above the others.
Gaining knowledge through studying alone is not possible, which is a call to actually experience the teachings instead of understanding them intellectually.

[Myoshin]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Kyle
"What do we do when we fall of the horse?"

Zoolander
W

Sorry Will I am not a gymnast.

1-4: Do not fool yourself into thinking you know everything about anything... chances are there are many who know more than you. Even the best teachers still have to go to class every once in a while.

1-5:

Do not pretend to be a teacher or a leader of others.

Kinda says to me not to place yourself higher than anyone else. We are all beginners. Kinda like a boss who does not listen to his workers just because they lack a degree or are young in age.

Gassho,
Kyle

[BrianW]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

I’m going to stretch the intended meaning of this a bit and relate it to a recent experience….please excuse me if I got a bit too “creative” in my response. Nevertheless, this week’s reading really hit me in a personal way.

[T]he monk opened up the box; he found a poisonous snake coiled up inside.

A number of years ago my daughter made me a “memory box”, sort of a scrapbook thing, with images of a group of our friends. This association of people has been slowly unraveling and this past week may have come to an end. It has been terribly upsetting and reading the above quote caused me to think about how, in the past, I thought of these “friends” as a source of meaning and happiness in my life and really believe I became too attached, resulting in suffering. My daughter and I spoke about how attaching to anyone or anything too tightly can result in disappointment. Nevertheless, she brought up the issue of how we had many good experiences and happy memories; attachment, or at least a sense of connectiveness with others, has positive attributes. We need to maintain healthy relationships with others but how do we do so without becoming too attached? In a broader sense, how do we maintain a healthy relationship to the Sangha, Buddha, and Dharma without becoming too attached?

The true practice which is in accordance with the teaching is nothing but shikantza, which is the essence of the life in this sorin (monastery).

I became really…really stressed as a result of this situation, as well as a few other “challenges” in my life and on Saturday (the 4th of July), I had a free day so I decided to do zazen for just about the entire day. I did 40 mins. of zazen, 20 mins walking meditation followed by either, listened to a sit-a-long, reading a bit of the Bendowa, or chanting the Heart Sutra… then I repeated the cycle. After about my second zazen session, my anxiety just suddenly dissolved and that wonderful “taste” of emptiness was present. Shikantaza seems more than the essence of life in the monastery…it is the essence of life.

Gassho,
BrianW

[Bansho]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Hi,

Ejo asked, “When we practice and learn the Way in a Zen monastery we should keep the pure regulations made by Zen Master Hyakujo, shouldn’t we? In the beginning of the Regulations (Hyakujo-Shingi), it says that receiving and maintaining the precepts is prerequisite. In this tradition, the Fundamental Precept has also been handed down. In the oral and face-to-face transmission of this lineage, the students are given the precepts transmitted from the West (India). These are the Bodhisattva Precepts. Also, it says in the Precept Sutra, that people must recite the Sutra day and night. Why do you have us discontinue this practice?”

Dogen replied, “You are right. Practitioners of the Way certainly ought to maintain Hyakujo’s regulations. The form of maintaining the regulations is receiving and observing the precepts and practicing zazen, etc. The meaning of reciting the Precept Sutra day and night and observing the precepts single-mindedly is nothing other than practicing shikantaza, following the activities of the ancient masters. When we sit zazen, what precept is not observed, what merit is not actualized? The ways of practice carried on by the ancient masters have a profound meaning. Without holding on to personal preferences, we should go along with the assembly and practice in accordance with those ways.

Observing the Precepts, bowing to the Buddha, chanting the Sutras... all of these activities are a necessary part of our Practice, and yet they all have the potential of being instrumentalized. If I do this, then I will get that. I can do this better than they can. I do this more often than they do. Pitfalls and traps abound. Zazen, however, isn't quite like this. If we try to grasp it and make it into something it isn't, it becomes very elusive. It isn't a tool, and it can't be tricked. If we truly practice Zazen, we are truly practicing the eightfold path.

Gassho
Bansho

[Kent]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Shobogenzo-Zuimonki 1-4 "The primary attitude for self-improvement is the practice of shikantaza. Without consideration as to whether you are clever or stupid, you will naturally improve if you practice zazen." I take comfort in knowing the Dharma can be accessible to anyone, especially myself. Kent