7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

[Jen]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-5

Practice. Study has its place, but daily practice is where it is at. Too much study can lead to confusion and draw you away from the practice, which is sitting.

[Eika]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-4: Do not fool yourself into thinking you know everything about anything... chances are there are many who know more than you. Even the best teachers still have to go to class every once in a while.

1-5:

Do not pretend to be a teacher or a leader of others.

Kinda says to me not to place yourself higher than anyone else. We are all beginners. Kinda like a boss who does not listen to his workers just because they lack a degree or are young in age.

Gassho,
Kyle

I agree with your understanding of this bit, that's the way I read it too. I did find it interesting that Dogen/Okamura used the word "pretend." It is OK to teach, but we must not fools ourselves about the things we are able to help others with. No posing. This requires great self-awareness and courage to diagnose our real understanding of things . . . can we help others with this particular thing, or is it better to let the universe teach them? That's where this reading took me.

Hi,
Observing the Precepts, bowing to the Buddha, chanting the Sutras... all of these activities are a necessary part of our Practice, and yet they all have the potential of being instrumentalized. If I do this, then I will get that. I can do this better than they can. I do this more often than they do. Pitfalls and traps abound. Zazen, however, isn't quite like this. If we try to grasp it and make it into something it isn't, it becomes very elusive. It isn't a tool, and it can't be tricked. If we truly practice Zazen, we are truly practicing the eightfold path.

Gassho
Bansho

I find that this is one of the most insidious aspects of my mind . . . the belief that the world functions solely on a quid pro quo basis. Recent developments have disabused me of this idea, but like any addiction there are times when my mind wants to follow those well-worn neural paths.

p. 20: Okamura: "Shikantaza is zazen which is practiced without expecting any reward, even enlightenment." :arrow: 1-4: " . . . the primary attitude for self-improvement is the practice of shikantaza." =
Zazen is not a self-improvement program, and the best way for self-improvement is zazen (shikantaza). :!: Brilliant :!:

Gassho,
Eika

[Jundo]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Zazen is not a self-improvement program, and the best way for self-improvement is zazen (shikantaza). :!: Brilliant :!:

Gassho,
Eika

Ah, Bill, I see you have improved in your playing.

[Dosho]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Hi all,

Just some impressions:

1-1 -- This one seems pretty clear to me in that even devout followers can cling to the symbols of their faith. I have seen many followers of a religion or a cause that have blinders on and lose much of themselves in advocating a particular view. As I work on my kesa, it is an object to be honored...but at the same time it is just an object...not sacred, not to show off. I'll wear it, I'll sit.

1-2 -- Just like the objects of our practice, the methods are not to be clung to either. Yes, adhere to tradition and the lessons of teachers, but don't lose yourself along the way. Question: For Dogen it seems to have always come back to zazen above ritual, sutras, and other bells and whistles..but can we cling to zazen too?

1-3 -- I read this one several times and I'm really not sure what the message is supposed to be. I do think it goes beyond the issue of eating meat, perhaps making the point that working with the goal of never breaking a precept merely causes the very suffering of which we are trying to make ourselves aware. Goalessness has a purpose, just not the one that's obvious. Or maybe Dogen was just saying a little extra protein was perhaps a good idea when we get sick.

Many people in the world want to have a good reputation and to be appreciated not only by others but also by themselves. However they are not always well spoken of or praised. If you gradually abandon your ego-attachment and follow the sayings of your teacher, you will progress. If you argue back [pretending] to know the truth, but remain unable to give up certain things and continue to cling to your own preferences, you will sink lower and lower.

1-4 -- The passage above really resonated with me since this is a trap I have often fallen into before. I also found it interesting that I came to Zen after a "failed" attempt at become a college professor, which is what my father does for a living. It took a long time to realize I had a different path. Not really what he's talking about here, but it sprang to mind.

1-5 -- Does the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none" mean anything to you? That's been me...always knowing a little about a lot of things but not deciding on one path to follow. Choosing seems scary, but that fear has kept me frozen in place. Becoming a stay at home dad and learning about zen has helped...just not sure where I'm headed from here.

Gassho,
Dosho

[em]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-4

To learn the practice and maintain the Way is to abandon ego-attachment 1 and to follow the instructions of the teacher. The essence of this is being free from greed.

This resonates with me as I've found, time and time again, that working with generousity is an important practice for me.

1-4 and 1-5 are alot about just doing what you know you should be doing.

[Rich]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-3
"In the assembly of Zen master Bussho 1, there was a monk who, when he was sick, wanted to eat meat 2. The master allowed him to do so. One night the master himself went to the infirmary and saw the sick monk eating meat in the dim lamplight. A demon was clinging to the monk’s head, eating the meat. Although the monk thought he was putting it into his own mouth, it was not him, but the demon who was eating. After that whenever a monk fell ill, the master allowed him to eat meat because he knew he was possessed by demons."

Acceptance of the demon in us is essential. As a winter athlete, I sometimes eat meat.

[Jundo]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Hi all,

Just some impressions:

1-1 -- This one seems pretty clear to me in that even devout followers can cling to the symbols of their faith. I have seen many followers of a religion or a cause that have blinders on and lose much of themselves in advocating a particular view. As I work on my kesa, it is an object to be honored...but at the same time it is just an object...not sacred, not to show off. I'll wear it, I'll sit.

1-2 -- Just like the objects of our practice, the methods are not to be clung to either.

Actually, Dogen would have certainly considered the Kesa sacred. Perhaps not to be "clung to" or to "show off", but certainly not just something to wear while sitting. Rev. T can tell you more about that than I, but here is something Dogen wrote ...

"The kesa is the heart of Zen, the marrow of its bones."

and

The Kasaya (Kesa) ... has been handed down from Buddha to Buddha, patriarch to patriarch, as the material evidence of having realized enlightenment,

Funny thing about Dogen ... All ya need is Zazen, not ceremony, not anything else. Yet, says Dogen, when one engages in a ceremony, bows to a Buddha statue, wears the Kesa ... that too is "the only thing", and sacred.

Gassho, J

[will]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-3

Dogen's saying "Think about it." or "Consider the question."


Gassho

W

[Al]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-1 The main point I took away from this was not to put form (relics) above emptiness (Shikantaza), and that if you do it can be as dangerous as a poisonous snake.

1-2 Zen is highly moral, the morality is just different from a stereotypical Judeo-Christian understanding. I like this explanation because it clearly outlines Zen morality. "Although keeping them is good, we should not take them as the primary practice. I don’t mean to say, however, that you should break the precepts and become self-indulgent. Clinging to such an attitude is an evil view and not that of a Buddhist practitioner." The precepts are not hard and fast rules, but they are also fast and hard rules. Clinging to strictness (something I was really fond of when I started learning about Buddhism and sometimes still get distracted by) can be seriously detrimental, same as clinging to .

1-3 This one may be a little out there for me to understand. I think I need some help with it. Demonic possession? Did Dogen allow meat eating in his sangha? I'm a vegetarian which I consider part of my Buddhist practice, but I'm well aware of the many different perspectives on this issue. I still feel like I'm missing something though. Is the point that there are many different perspectives?

1-4 Dogen says relax. No one's born being a Buddha. Dogen says kick ass, because you are already a buddha and "primary attitude for self-improvement is the practice of shikantaza."

1-5 "Knowing" is impossible. It is one thing to learn facts (man has walked on the moon) but it is another thing to KNOW this, to experience it yourself. There are so many things we can't "know" in this way. Also, "do not pretend to be a teacher or leader." Is it okay to actually be one, just don't ever pretend?

[Dosho]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Actually, Dogen would have certainly considered the Kesa sacred. Perhaps not to be "clung to" or to "show off", but certainly not just something to wear while sitting. Rev. T can tell you more about that than I, but here is something Dogen wrote ...

"The kesa is the heart of Zen, the marrow of its bones."

and

The Kasaya (Kesa) ... has been handed down from Buddha to Buddha, patriarch to patriarch, as the material evidence of having realized enlightenment,

Funny thing about Dogen ... All ya need is Zazen, not ceremony, not anything else. Yet, says Dogen, when one engages in a ceremony, bows to a Buddha statue, wears the Kesa ... that too is "the only thing", and sacred.

Gassho, J

Believe me, I think of my kesa (in progress) as sacred. I was actually referring to sacred in the "sacred cow" sense...something that is immune from criticism and cannot be done without. I imagine that if I didn't have my kesa and asked Dogen if should sit anyway, he wouldn't tell me I had to wait. The monks he referred to in the readings seemed to think those things were absolutely necessary or there was no point to sitting. And as a person who once thought it might not be proper to sit zazen if I couldn't be exactly still, that's a lesson that I needed! Maybe I'm the one missing the point...there is so much nuance to Dogen...probably why it is so relevant after hundreds of years.

[Jinho]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Concerning 1-1:

Thinking of my own practice, I have found it useful to practice humility by bowing or showing respect. It can also be a way of letting go. It goes against my grain to bow to a statue but by doing it I can let go of the notion that it is a silly thing to do.

All the best,
em

Greetings em,

Your post, by comparison, reminds me that bowing is not about humility to me (but rather about gratitude, a sort of big thank you to all the persons who have have passed down and added to the Dharma). And until I read your post I never thought of it as bowing to a statue, but that is certainly the material reality of it ..... must think about this........

gassho,
rowan/jinho

[Jinho]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-2

Number 1 precept: Sit morning and evening.
Number 2 precept: Correct action moment to moment.

THANK YOU RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These are precepts, IN WRITING, that I desperately need. My only edit would be changing number 2 to "best action (I can figure out) moment to moment"

gassho,
rowan/jinho

[Jinho]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Hi all,

Regarding keeping the precepts, I believe what is referred to is different from the precepts we accept at Jukai (do not kill, do not steal, etc). The precepts I believe Dogen is referring to are much more complicated rules of monastic conduct.

Regarding the meat-eating demons, frankly I would guess that this indicates that Dogen, like most people of his time and place, believed in the existence of demons. Also Hakuin, from his writings, absolutely believed in the existence of hell (as in where bad, unenlightened people go after they die). However, since I am not Dogen, I can only see if this has some usefulness in my life.

As to clinging to my own egotistical views, having been insulted and dismissed by one too many Roshis, I will continue to look for the pearls and ignore the rest. Angie Boisvain Sensei (for Floating Zendo - great website with great talks on it) requests everyone listen to a short speech by her before listening to her other talks. In this speech she says that her teishos are only her understanding and exhorts people to not accept them uncritically but to measure the ideas against their own experience. I believe this is the only sane way to approach any teaching (or indeed anything).

as always, thank you for your time,

jinho

[Tb]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Regarding the meat-eating demons, frankly I would guess that this indicates that Dogen, like most people of his time and place, believed in the existence of demons. Also Hakuin, from his writings, absolutely believed in the existence of hell (as in where bad, unenlightened people go after they die). However, since I am not Dogen, I can only see if this has some usefulness in my life.

Hi.

Have you ever heard of gremlins in the engine?
Or "the santa Claws" or "the eastern bunny" ( intentional misspelling)?
We here in sweden says that a Mara is riding you when you're having nightmares.
It doesn't have to be literal, although in a sense it is.
But it is sometimes useful.

As for the hell part,

Hell ain't a bad place
Hell is from here to eternity

- Iron maiden

Even Buddha used hell in his talks according to the texts.
Was it meant to be literal?

And to quote another master.

Everything is useful.
Nothing is as useful.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Dojin]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

please excuse me for not reading what you all wrote... i have little time lately and the post are so numerous. i just cant keep up.

i have not yet finished reading all the parts for this reading, but i will say this.

in part 1-2 i totally agree with Dogen.
people sometimes cling to written words and go by the book instead of just practicing it themselves. it is good to hold the precepts and to abide by them, but you should not recite them all the time. you just follow them and let life be, you stumble some times stand up dust yourself up and keep at it. you shouldnt let it be all you do. it should come naturally to you, it is something that evolves as you practice and sit zazen, and your zazen evolves and grows from the precepts... in the end its all the same... when you sit you observe all the precepts.


Gassho, Dojin.