7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

[Jundo]

And ... we're off!

Welcome to our first set of readings in Master Dogen's SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI!!

'Shobogenzo' is often translated as 'Treasure House of the True Law', a rather imposing title!

But 'Zuimonki' might be translated, -very- loosely, as 'a bunch of random things that Dogen said which somebody wrote down' ...

... and that's what it is!

Now, the 'game' we will be playing will be to see how we might creatively apply many of these little talks ... meant for 13th century Japanese monks in a Zen monastery, samurai, noble ladies, peasants and others ... to our Zen practice and our day-to-day lives. Please be creative in finding any lessons and bits of wisdom.

So, for example, in 1-17, when Dogen complains ...

Men and women in secular society, both young and old, often pass the time talking about lewd things. They do so to amuse their minds and beguile themselves. It seems as though idle talk entertains their minds and diverts them from boredom for a while. Monks, however, should completely avoid such talk.

... you can think how much time you spend chatting on the internet (apart from Treeleaf, OF COURSE! :roll: ) or around the water cooler at the office. Or, you might think and comment about whether a little more silence each day might help in one's Zazen.

Got how the game goes?

Some readings, however, MAY NOT APPLY AT ALL, EVEN WITH A BIG STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION. So, don't feel that you have find a connection for everything.

There are also some topics covered that may surprise, or stimulate discussion ... such as comments Dogen makes this week on Buddha statues, the Precepts, meat eating and the like.

Also, DON'T FEEL YOU HAVE TO AGREE WITH DOGEN ABOUT EVERYTHING. Buddhist students typically feel that they must appreciate the wisdom of every little mumbling and musing that comes out of an ancient Zen teachers' mouth (I wish 'ol Jundo got half that much respect :wink: ). But, ya know, Dogen was just a man ... although a --very-- wise one and wondrous Zen teacher ... who lived a long time ago and could be a bit of a grumpy gus too. So, feel free to disagree with 'Old Dogen when your feel it.

Okay, I think that is it ... remember my comment about the funky footnotes in the online version here ....

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1779

THIS WEEK WE WILL COVER READINGS 1-1 through 1-5, available here:

http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/common_ ... 01-01.html

Length runs from a few paragraphs to just a couple of sentences per reading.

I might suggest you read maybe one section per day, kind of like a "Dose of Daily Dogen" ... Or you can read them all at once.

I also ask that all people participating in the book club post at least once or twice a week EVEN IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE NOTHING MUCH TO SAY (typically, the effort itself will inspire you).

Have a good ZUIMONKI!

[Jinho]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Greetings all,

My thoughts as I read

1-1 - This reverence for material relics seems very foreign to me at first, but then I thought that perhaps it can have some benefit in terms of keeping the good example of the teachers in the forefront of one's mind and heart. I bow out of gratitude for everyone who has passed down (and discovered new) dharma.

"The true practice which is in accordance with the teaching is nothing but shikantaza " - one thing I think to be noted is that (at least this is the impression I got from reading the complete Shobogenzo) at that time and place, zazen often took very much second place to study, debate/discussion, entertaining friends and chanting. So I think it is important to know this in relation to the above quote.

So the story reminds me to think of what delusions I have in my life, what I hold on to as if they were magical relics. In what ways do I think the Buddha is some other place or person?

1-2 - This brings up my need to examine my delusions about zazen - do I subconciously believe that enlightenment is dependent on a certain body position or only to be found in quietude?

1-4 - I keep hearing about this this terrible Ego-thing. However, I think it more important to try to cut through stupidity, (for example - the stupidity of not understanding the connection of all things. However it is equally important not to misunderstand the connection of all things, this leads to superstition). If I try to believe that Jinho does not exist, then what am I washing and feeding each morning? But the question of "who" is one to use to cut through delusion. It is also important to avoid the trap of using non-existence (or, more correctly, impermanent existence) to disrespect oneself and/or other phenomena. This disrespect and denigration is particualrly vivid to abuse survivors.

gassho,
Jinho/Rowan

[will]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

First Comment 1-1:

As the monk was leaving in anger, the master shouted after him, “Open the box and look inside!”

There is absolutely nothing wrong with worshipping Buddha. Let the monk do what he does. However, anger can be solved. The monk was angry about the statue, which shows attachment.

I'd like to use this phrase “Open the box and look inside!” a little differently. Instead of a poison that comes from this stuff, maybe "open the box" as in "Shikantaza".

Open the box. Sit. Practice, and balance it out.

The true practice which is in accordance with the teaching is nothing but shikantaza

Edit:

it is a false view 6 to think that you will be able to gain enlightenment only through worshipping them. Such a view will cause you to become possessed by the demon and the poisonous snake.

Yes. So what the guy is saying is: "Sit G*dd*mnit!"




W

[Jen]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Relics are relics but they sure aren't necessary for zazen. Example- I sometimes wear a wrist mala. It helps remind me to be be mindful throughout the day. But if I were to depend on it- unable to remember mindfulness if I didn't wear it- then it would be an attachment, just as the statue was to the monk.

Dependence on the accouterments is attachment. Appreciation is one thing, dependence is a whole 'nother can of worms (or box of snakes)!

[Tb]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Hi.

Relics are relics.
In the precepts we say "refrain from intoxication".
It's very applicable here...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Shindo]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

To me this section is all about attachment - even to a statue of the buddha (which I assume back then Dogen's comments were quite close to the mark). Eventually we have to let everything go -even our attachment to buddhism.

Kind regards

Jools

[Jundo]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

I just want to thank you all, and say how I think our "game" is off to a very fine beginning! Lovely comments.

I think of this as a way of learning how to bring these old teachings down to earth, into our own lives ... and learning how to make them relevant to each of us ... making Dogen's ancient teachings into the here and now. Dry words of some old master need to be brought to life in our life, and then we each become a bit of the teacher for ourselves.

Gassho, Jundo

Ps- I hope someone is keeping a record of when I come up with little chestnut quotes like the above ... to be preserved someday in the "Jundo Zooey Monkey" 8)

[Shohei]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Agreed Shindo (and all, i was a bobble headed goof while reading your posts )
1-1 do not be attached to the images and thoughts of what you NEED to practice. Just sitting is IT.
1-2 Follow the rules, practices but they take a back seat to zazen - and points out while good to keep the rules in good standing..what rule is broke while just sitting? At the same time/ not different we should still put our best effort to maintain the rules and practices.
1-3 good one for me to remember (about the meat eating in a round about way) Again do not be attached, in this case to the precepts although we aim to keep in good standing ...we would break a precept or all of them by hanging on to them like a pitbull.
1-4 Interesting in that i still find myself looking for that recognition...still attached to praise or hoping to avoid a scolding. Another sticky bit.
1-5 drop your need to know it all and focus one what you can know.



Those are my initial thoughts as i read each one. Ill have to revisit im sure

Gassho, Shohei

[em]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Concerning 1-1:

he constantly burned incense and prostrated himself before them, honoring and making offerings.

Thinking of my own practice, I have found it useful to practice humility by bowing or showing respect. It can also be a way of letting go. It goes against my grain to bow to a statue but by doing it I can let go of the notion that it is a silly thing to do.

As I think about this story, the images and relics of the Buddha should be revered since they are the form and bones left by the Tathagata 5; nevertheless, it is a false view 6 to think that you will be able to gain enlightenment only through worshipping them.

As many others have pointed out there is more to practice than this. The path is eightfold after all.

All the best,
em

[Rich]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

"As I think about this story, the images and relics of the Buddha should be revered since they are the form and bones left by the Tathagata 5; nevertheless, it is a false view 6 to think that you will be able to gain enlightenment only through worshipping them. Such a view will cause you to become possessed by the demon and the poisonous snake."

I think most Westerners have the opposite problem of that monk. He seems to have been obsessive about worshipping the image and relics of Buddha. Most Westerners need to have significant understanding of the Dharma before feeling comfortable with the bowing and reverance stuff.
Blind faith vs. Trust yet verify. It's the sitting stupid. But I do allow myself a little superstition
/Rich

[Myoshin]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-1:

Relics are relics.
In the precepts we say "refrain from intoxication".
It's very applicable here...

Agreed to this and to the above comments.

I think the key is to find an equilibrium. If one wants to bow and prostrate in front of a statue so be it. It is just a statue. But one must not become infatuated by the statue... as many have said that is attachment = suffering = pain (kinda sound like Yoda here). On the other hand one cannot just dismiss humble reverence for things.

Today I think a lot of the world is concerned with material possessions even things that cannot be bought (like a sunset, love, and other intangible things). Everyone at one point I think has been like that monk. Each one of us with that, close to our heart, Buddha statue whatever it may be. The fact of the matter is sometimes we have to be reminded that that statue is not the only thing in the world... we may not always like the reminder but it helps.

Gassho,
Kyle

[will]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-2

I'll just post my quotes, then go into it.

we should not take them as the primary practice [precepts]. I don’t mean to say, however, that you should break the precepts and become self-indulgent.

This tells us that the precepts (as usual) are a guideline. I have a couple examples that I'll save til last.

For this reason, I taught a fellow student of mine, Gogenbo, a disciple of Zen-Master Eisai 4, to abandon his strict adherence of keeping the precepts and reciting the Precept Sutra 5 day and night.

This references the first quote (don't mistake them as the practice).

The meaning of reciting the Precept Sutra day and night and observing the precepts single-mindedly 7 is nothing other than practicing Shikantaza.

This is the activity of Shikintaza. It's observance of self.

When we sit zazen, what precept is not observed, what merit is not actualized? The ways of practice carried on by the ancient masters have a profound meaning. Without holding on to personal preferences, we should go along with the assembly and practice in accordance with those ways.

Ok. To set this in a modern context. Kind of hard to say.

Here's an example: In the first quote he mentions:

"I don’t mean to say, however, that you should break the precepts and become self-indulgent".
'
This self indulgent is interesting. It seems the same thing that comes from "I want this, or I want that. I don't need to sit. I don't need to to do this or that." there's a balance there, where Body and Mind are not worrying about it. Zazen.

So in a modern context...maybe, don't go out drinking until 4 am and then end up with a hang over in the morning unable to get out of bed. Selfish. These were written for monks so....

Alright. Let's look at it this way. I stay up until 3am doing whatever. Ok. Fine. That's fine. But when I have a good Zazen day, that doesn't apply. There is sleep and lunch and so on.

Really, we don't need all that stuff because it's just greed and sometimes Zazen is enough. Which precepts are we talking about here? The monastic precepts?

It's the same thing as the statue in 1-1. Zazen is the central practice in Soto Zen. In order to abide by the precepts we need to bring ourselves to a point where that can be a realization. We can't expect too much of ourselves right away. Zazen is the way too look deep and such.

Here's the precepts (Zen Mountain Monastery):

The Three Pure Precepts

1. Not Creating Evil
2. Practicing Good
3. Actualizing Good For Others

Well, this is all nice and such, but sometimes we don't. That's a fact. Practice, practice, practice. But try. When you feel like just.. ARRRRRGGH!! ....try or practice.

The Ten Grave Precepts

1. Affirm life; Do not kill
2. Be giving; Do not steal
3. Honor the body; Do not misuse sexuality
4. Manifest truth; Do not lie
5. Proceed clearly; Do not cloud the mind
6. See the perfection; Do not speak of others
errors and faults
7. Realize self and other as one; Do not elevate the self and blame others
8. Give generously; Do not be withholding
9. Actualize harmony; Do not be angry
10. Experience the intimacy of things; Do not
defile the Three Treasures



Look. A lot of us have had some pretty bad moments. We know that. The precepts are a reminder. Just do it. The precepts and practice go hand in hand. Read them again. I just did. It's all great, but it's kind of like a new years resolution (it doesn't really stick) until we ingrain them. Some of them are obvious, but that depends on the person.

Here's one: 9. Actualize harmony; Do not be angry

Well, that's great. Thanks for the advice

Another:

10. Experience the intimacy of things; Do not
defile the Three Treasures

What? How am I supposed to get intimate when I'm bouncing off my cushion? LOL

A lot of the precepts come naturally through practice. Think about it. There are things like not coveting possessions and such. Well, that just kind of comes up. You see yourself getting worked up over a broken (whatever) and just remind yourself about that precept.

Ok. I've talked long enough. Basically the same as 1-1 (practice Zazen and then get up).

Gassho

W

[Rich]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-2
"[You] should maintain the precepts and eating regulations 1 (one meal a day before noon, etc.). Still, it is wrong to insist upon them as essential, establish them as a practice, and expect to be able to gain the Way by observing them"

Number 1 precept: Sit morning and evening.
Number 2 precept: Correct action moment to moment.

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

Just read 1-1, so I guess I am little late (but right on time, I know ;-) )

As mentioned before, the message seems to be "get on the cushion and go!", no attachement, no wicked monuments of thoughts, concepts, studying and worshipping. In fact, that is one of the most appealing aspects of zazen to me.

I bought a little buddha statue the other day. Happy that I got it, but I thought about what it really means then. I still like it, but it's not some sort of shrine, just a nice looking little reminder when I cross the room.

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/3 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-1 to 1-5

1-2: My take on this is: follow the rules, but do not raise them to some sort of dogma. Question everything everytime, because each moment is unique and different from each other. If you dare to question what is taught, it is possible to get to the core of the teaching and to get to know it's true value. If you just follow because you have to, it is just some hollow shell.