Realizing Genjokoan - Chapter 3 to P 31

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

So I can't say for sure if I've felt the borders soften or not. When I'm sitting I sometimes notice that things I'm experiencing are usually less vivacious and I tend to get less absorbed in them. I also noticed that I tend to do less active thinking. I'm not quite sure how to explain it but there's the kind of thinking I have to put effort into starting but there is also the kind of thinking where I get swept up in the ideas. Does that resonate with anyone else?

When I was first reading this chapter I got the sense that Okumura was almost downplaying our usual way of being in the world. Sort of suggesting that the other way which we see sometimes when were sitting (lets call it Buddha-Vision.) But after having sometime to think about it I think that might just be him trying to emphasis the ephemeral nature of the world. Skillful means as it were. What do you guys think?

as a side note, if anyone is interested in learning more about "being in the zone" they should look up the work of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. Specifically his work on the concept of "flow."


Gassho,

Sattoday

Hoseki

[Tai Shi]

To thoughtful with ideas. There is no I in ocean of breath Morning not there body speaks the drops to chewing tongue then blank white moist interval breath in breath out chew chew do not the comes rimless time no time 20 minutes compressed to nothing no Tim then bodily functions time drops away and pain drops away no pain this is center with no pain the three times ding ding ding eyes open dim light candle power small how much time to breakfast an mindful day then again tonight pain returns however slight.


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[Seishin]

In Zazen, have you experienced the hard borders between self and not self (the rest of the world) soften a bit or drop away?

I cannot say that I have experienced this in my three years of sitting. I may have once felt grounded and was, I guess you'd say at one with the Zafu and Zabuton but that was one fleeting moment. Although I can open the hand of thought, my body always seems to make its presence felt. In my aching knees, cramping foot tendons and sometimes warming hands. None of these debilitating pain wise but enough to make me aware of their presence and in the same time letting them pass with the thoughts.

Have you ever had times when you stopped resisting, and totally "went with the flow" of events ... thus dropping the "Dukkha" from a hard time in your life? Even felt that you were the flow and the flow just you?

In general life events I am sure I've experienced this but not recently and can't recall any specific situations. I can relate to this occurring in focused activities, as others have mentioned, such as running, playing guitar or out motorcycling. Folks talk about a "runners high" but in this context I see it in a different way, almost an effortless effort, as if you a floating over the course for a few short moments, all atoms fused as one flowing mass. With the guitar playing a familiar piece that becomes again effortless and relaxed not thinking of what comes next, just going with the progression or melody. On the bike, forgetting the bike, the road, forgetting we are all separate but drinking in all the surroundings all at once and all encompassing. For me that represents the age old Biker Koan question of, " why do you ride a bike " and the response that if you are asking the question, you would not understand.
No thinking just being.


My general comments the sections, is one of understanding all of this at an intellectual level (yes I can finally say that) but still unsure of how to apply the acceptance of impermanence and interdependence to my daily life. But I am sure Dogen Zenji and Okumura Roshi will help this to become clearer.

Sat / lah

[Heiso]

I really enjoyed this chapter, Okumura Roshi definitely firmed up a few concepts for me, although no doubt when I try to explain them again I'll find my grip on the slippery eel that is Zen isn't quite as firm as I thought. I also really liked Uchiyama Roshi's phrase 'scenery of life', just as I like 'opening the hand of thought'.

In Zazen, have you experienced the hard borders between self and not self (the rest of the world) soften a bit or drop away?

Yes, I think I've felt this on several occasions and the first few times after I sat and didn't feel that softening or connection to everything I felt I'd failed but then I later realised that chasing those feelings is itself a delusion and there's no failing in zazen.

I also try to apply this in daily life walking down the street, I try to kind of mentally rub out the lines that are me and those that are the person walking by me and remember that at it's most basic, we're just the same group of atoms clumped together.

Have you ever had times when you stopped resisting, and totally "went with the flow" of events ... thus dropping the "Dukkha" from a hard time in your life? Even felt that you were the flow and the flow just you?

I have a bit of a strange example which may be off the mark but - years ago in the army I had to walk straight up the side of a mountain in the pouring rain with a big pack on my back. At one point I sank to my knees and thought I can't go on. After a little while I had a lightbulb moment, realised nobody was going to come and pick me and my pack up so just got up and started walking again. I just accepted the situation and didn't worry about how far I'd come or how far I had to go, I just put one foot in front of the other. I knew I was exhausted and in pain but stopped attaching to the meaning of those terms and just concentrated on the moment. I guess that was very literal suffering but it seemed relevant - not 'in the flow' but not attaching to how I wanted things to be.

Gassho,

Neil

StLah

[Onka]

Unfiltered thoughts from the first couple of pages of ch3...

Realisation that the acceptance of truth in the Buddha's teachings still requires the unpacking of 47 years worth of baggage, both negative and positive.

Analogy of peeling back layers of an onion is apt but at the same time seems a wee bit dismissive of the struggle within that accompanies the journey.

Finally the journey is not just mine to take. Without intent i am forcing anyone who knows me or thinks they know me along for the not always pretty adventure as I battle myself in order to find my Self or No Self.

Gassho Anna

Sat today/Lent a hand

[Heikyo]

Hello everyone. I’ve been a “listener” on Treeleaf for far too long and it’s about time I started contributing!
I am really enjoying reading this book. I have found that Shohaku Okumura gives really clear explanations of things that I have found quite confusing in the past.

Question 1
This has happened although probably not as often as I think it has. As I think others have said, being absorbed in the flow of something (like awareness of the breath) I think is still having an idea of 'self'. It is very difficult to put into words what dropping away actually feels like. For me, the breath sometimes recedes into the background but nothing replaces that awareness. It seems it is more of an intuitive awareness. Really hard to articulate this!

Question 2
During hard times it can be quite difficult to drop the sense of self as it is needed to work through that difficulty on a day to day basis. But on the other hand when things are getting really tough, just accepting the universe for what it is - impermanent and interconnected – allows the problem to work itself out.
Sat today, lah

[Amelia]

Hello all,

I have finished the reading again. I'm glad I spent some time and went back to it.

In Zazen, have you experienced the hard borders between self and not self (the rest of the world) soften a bit or drop away?

Yes, but more often while out and about, many times on public transit. I have noticed a few times that people describe these experiences as often happening in public or crowded spaces. Shinshi mentioned being in a shopping mall.

Once on the bus to work, it suddenly felt like a physical curtain went up from my eyes and mind, and I saw each person and object for what it was. It felt like none of us were strangers, and that we all forgot we are the same stuff. It forced a small fit of laughter, but I think I was quiet enough that no one noticed, and it only lasted for a few moments. It is best not to wish for it, and instead I am comforted that from what I can tell, Nirvana is ever-present, even if I am not always or never again in a perceived enlightened state.

Have you ever had times when you stopped resisting, and totally "went with the flow" of events ... thus dropping the "Dukkha" from a hard time in your life? Even felt that you were the flow and the flow just you?

When I am doing paperwork or a task that I have put off for a long time. I just start. I feel like a hint for allowing this state is to just start something. When I have taken on something a little daunting, outside of myself, and suddenly I'm in the middle of the ocean, but if I panic I will drown, so I gotta snap back into it.

I now feel that my ability to access the "softening of borders" is like a reservoir that I can now access when I want, like hitting a switch.

I have been learning how to use this switch. I like to use visualization (not during zazen). Knowing that the placebo effect is real, and that building habits is just a matter of time and consistency, I try to use it. Jundo's "Fake it 'Til You Make It" teaching really sticks with me.

Gassho

Sat today, lah

[Tairin]

In Zazen, have you experienced the hard borders between self and not self (the rest of the world) soften a bit or drop away?

Yes although I am not sure I can really put it into better words than “soften”. After a few years of practice I am definitely realizing that there are changes in my approach to .... well .... many things actually. I am finding my egocentric tendencies being less dominant.

Hi folks,

So I can't say for sure if I've felt the borders soften or not. When I'm sitting I sometimes notice that things I'm experiencing are usually less vivacious and I tend to get less absorbed in them. I also noticed that I tend to do less active thinking. I'm not quite sure how to explain it but there's the kind of thinking I have to put effort into starting but there is also the kind of thinking where I get swept up in the ideas. Does that resonate with anyone else?

Yes! What a great way to describe it. I’ve been finding that I been having the same tendency to do less active thinking. I am not even sure it is thinking with any sort of purpose or goal. Maybe the best way to describe it is a natural tendency for thoughts to come and go. On the cushion there is still some effort but I find that off the cushion sometimes it seems to just happen naturally. Maybe it always has but now I am more aware of it.

Have you ever had times when you stopped resisting, and totally "went with the flow" of events ... thus dropping the "Dukkha" from a hard time in your life? Even felt that you were the flow and the flow just you?

Definitely. Several people have mentioned this in relation to music. I totally get that. I create my own music (solo or in groups). I find that if I go into that creative session with a lot of preconceived ideas about what to create then there can be struggles. Without a doubt the best music I’ve done has been when I just go with the flow and go where the music takes me. It isn’t necessarily being “in the zone” although that happens too. Of course the absolute best is when the “flow” and the “zone” both happen simultaneously


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

Let's see what the rest of the book has to say about these questions. We might say that the whole Genjo Koan is about this.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

I have only gone into chapter 2 and shall make it up today with being ready after three for 3 and more, and I sit now with Eggmont Overture of Beethoven who in his last Four String Quartets of brilliance looking toward death did pave his way for TS Eliot to seek Buddha hood and lasting everlasting "All Shall be well./ And, all things shall be well..." "As the dove descending in 'flames'" of everlasting fire, and "pyre" of our Buddha in wings of St. John brought promise he could not guarantee.

Tai Shi
ever calm poetry
sat/lah
Gassho

[Seibu]

To question 1: What I experience regularly albeit for a short time during my sitting sessions is an extremely high level of clarity dawning upon me. It feels as if everything is good as it is, as if everything is perfect just the way it is, and this usually happens when there are no thoughts at all. Then I start realizing this and the thoughts come back, especially about the experience I just described.

To question 2: Yes, absolutely. Ever since I joined Treeleaf, started sitting daily, following your lessons, reading the recommended books, and applying all in practice I feel that I can accept things as they are much easier than before, even situations or discussions where I used to show resistance or opposition. It feels as if everything starts to fall in place without becoming passive in life. It's not easy to describe but our practice has changed the way I deal with anything profoundly, people around me noticed it too, and I am deeply grateful for this .

Gassho,
Jack
Sattoday/lah

[Tai Shi]

My occupation with knees and feet forced me to be in the now of walking[emoji3286]. I will read more today of this masterful in the now book— today!
Tai Shi
Gassho
sat


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[Tai Shi]

Two minutes were as nothing and so with this writing this morning.
Tai Shi
sat/lah
Gassho


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[Tai Shi]

Self or no self-- as I experience pain, this that haunts my very breath, ribs, diaphragm, invisible in neck as I sit, is there no self? NO. There is a self that experiences suffering, dissatisfaction at the physical universe which is me. I am the physical universe as so is every being, "Ah, I hurt!" Is this Dukkha? OR, is it sensation of arthritic bones crushing again. Only one who experiences the pain of living can assume the joy of living. So, without Dukkha, there is no suffering in dissatisfaction, but body, mind suffer without end! So, what is Dukkha? Are we to be satisfied with incurable diseases? Do diseases undermine the Buddha with one who made lots of Lemonade. Or does the Compassionate Buddha allow for caring, entering again level 8 pain today, two weeks before my next biological.

Tai Shi
sat/lah
Gassho