Realizing Genjokoan - Chapter 3 to P 31

[Jakuden]

I have come to realize that when you teach about "not resisting, going with the flow" you probably are meaning more than what we think of as "flow" in the mindfulness way that became a catchphrase for a time, and mostly referenced absorption in an activity. I can become absorbed in an activity or in work and concentrate for hours without distraction, even when things are chaotic or even catastrophic. However, when I am at large in the world and responding or reacting to all the random jostling and unwanted disturbances that fly at me, I have to consciously come back to the flow of the moment and remind myself not to resist, because it appears as though I have a choice in those times. Of course I always have a choice how to process and react, just in the work situation my mind has been trained to drop all extraneous thinking. Slowly I am learning to do this all the time, not just while working. The more one practices the dropping away of all resistance and boundaries during Zazen, the stronger the memory of this one can carry into the rest of life.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

I have come to realize that when you teach about "not resisting, going with the flow" you probably are meaning more than what we think of as "flow" in the mindfulness way that became a catchphrase for a time, and mostly referenced absorption in an activity.

No, I am not speaking of being "in the Zone" or just absorbed in some activity, as pleasant as that can be.

I think the the old Zen Masters would mean truly becoming "one with the universe, and its constant change, as if the hard borders between inside and outside you dropped away.

If birth and death and life's ups and downs start to feel more like theatre, or just one way to view who you are and what's going on, then you get a clue to being on the right track.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kevin M]

Just joining and catching up. (From the previous chapter I loved, even in abbreviated form, the story of Dogen's life. Note to self: would like to read a fuller biography of Dogen, if it exists)

So far mostly I'm still confused. I'm going to demonstrate my ignorance of basic Buddhism now so please don't kick me out. I enjoyed the discussion of impermanence and suffering and the four seals. In popular books I always see the four noble truths and the noble eight-fold path. But while I'm aware of the centrality of impermanence in Buddhism I don't know where this was actually "said" by the Buddha (in the same sense that as the 4NT and the 8NP).

I don't understand the intent of the three lines from the Genjokoan - like why the three of them together? Is it an argument with QED at the end? And if so, what is the final conclusion? The lines call to mind that saying "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is a mountain". But I'm still not clear of the overall point. Also, why "all dharmas" vs "ten thousand dharmas" vs "Buddha Way"?

Gassho,
SAT

[Jundo]

Hi Kevin,

Just joining and catching up. (From the previous chapter I loved, even in abbreviated form, the story of Dogen's life. Note to self: would like to read a fuller biography of Dogen, if it exists)

Well, as with many saints, many later elaborations ... some quite fantastic and miracle oriented ... were added to his story by later writers in the centuries that followed. However, if you would like a fun version, the Soto-shu has a manga comic!

https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/comics/index.html

Also, there is the movie, which is pretty good (except for the one scene with the pink flying lotus ... ). My review ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6122-New-Master-Dogen-Movie&p=20686&viewfull=1#post20686

It is available, with permission of the producers, on Youtube ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TGSTOSOvj4

So far mostly I'm still confused. I'm going to demonstrate my ignorance of basic Buddhism now so please don't kick me out. I enjoyed the discussion of impermanence and suffering and the four seals. In popular books I always see the four noble truths and the noble eight-fold path. But while I'm aware of the centrality of impermanence in Buddhism I don't know where this was actually "said" by the Buddha (in the same sense that as the 4NT and the 8NP).

Oh, we won't kick you out. Your being here is quite permanent! I believe it is taught many places ...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel186.html

I think that the Buddha said some things around the topic in the old Suttas (and is certainly quoted as teaching so in the later Sutras such as the Diamond). One of the most famous phrases is only attributed to him sometimes, and other times is said by others about him: "Impermanent are all component things, They arise and cease, that is their nature: They come into being and pass away" ...

I don't understand the intent of the three lines from the Genjokoan - like why the three of them together? Is it an argument with QED at the end? And if so, what is the final conclusion?

The books looks more closely at those lines in the coming sections.

Gassho, J

STLah

[sosen]

I feel very grateful to be participating in this discussion.

Okamura-sensei has a wonderful ability to render the conceptually ‘heavy stuff’ in simple and very accessible language. He condenses dukkha to one fundamental point – that we don’t ‘get’ impermanence and emptiness. The ideas in this section are very familiar, they will be to many people, but the deep challenge embedded in them is ongoing. I understand the concepts of impermanence and emptiness intellectually, as ‘objects of knowledge’, but still have to work constantly (practice) to try to live from them as a ‘felt knowings’. Knowing about something (abstract/intelletual objects) is radically different from felt-knowing from lived experience. I think this section encapsulates the challenge at the very heart of our practice – to live from a felt knowing of impermanence and emptiness, and allow that to form the basis of consciously living the two-truths (relative and absolute).

To respond to Jundo’s questions, yes, there have been a few experiences of no-self, both in Zazen, and on a couple of other occasions (usually after prolonged physical and/or psychological suffering), where there is not really a ‘Self’ to go with the flow - there is just ‘flow’. These experiences provide an experiential reference point for that felt knowing, but that doesn’t mean I find it possible to live from that felt knowing. At times, having had those experiences poses a further challenge – they become objects to cling to, and needing to let go of the ‘idea of’ those experiences (i.e. abstraction ‘about’ the experience) can be another hurdle. Sometimes when I suffer, I exacerbate my own suffering because I know (intellectually) that there is no enduring ‘me’ that should/can suffer – ‘I’ get in ‘my’ own way. Such a subtle and ‘profoundly wonderous’ challenge.

_()_
sosen
stlah

[Jundo]

To respond to Jundo’s questions, yes, there have been a few experiences of no-self, both in Zazen, and on a couple of other occasions (usually after prolonged physical and/or psychological suffering), where there is not really a ‘Self’ to go with the flow - there is just ‘flow’. These experiences provide an experiential reference point for that felt knowing, but that doesn’t mean I find it possible to live from that felt knowing. At times, having had those experiences poses a further challenge – they become objects to cling to, and needing to let go of the ‘idea of’ those experiences (i.e. abstraction ‘about’ the experience) can be another hurdle. Sometimes when I suffer, I exacerbate my own suffering because I know (intellectually) that there is no enduring ‘me’ that should/can suffer – ‘I’ get in ‘my’ own way. Such a subtle and ‘profoundly wonderous’ challenge.

_()_
sosen
stlah

Yes, don't cling or chase after.

I now feel that my ability to access the "softening of borders" is like a reservoir that I can now access when I want, like hitting a switch. I need self and goals to survive and get by in the world like we all do, but sometimes when I want ... like hitting a switch ... I can soften those borders, drop the goals and frictions with the world. Sometimes it is like one of those "dimmer" switches in which I can soften or drop "self" to various degrees. It is also possible to have the switch both "on" and "off" at the same time (a very Zen Koany way). So, there is self but no self ... goals but no goals ... frictions but no frictions ... life and death but no life and death ... etc. etc.

It is just a skillless skill that we develop in our Zen Practice and Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Geika]

I think I will be re-reading this bit and chapter two, since we will be spending some time. I really wanna get it in the brain, you know?

Gassho

Sat today, lah

[Seishin]

A little advice sought. My Kindle App on PC and Tablet is not showing page numbers and I can't find an option to display them. Can some one confirm where Page/No Page 31 stops or begins. Thank you.

Sat

[Shinshi]

A little advice sought. My Kindle App on PC and Tablet is not showing page numbers and I can't find an option to display them. Can some one confirm where Page/No Page 31 stops or begins. Thank you.

Sat

I too am using a kindle and missed this in Jundo's post the first time I read it: "stopping at "WHEN THE TEN THOUSAND DHARMAS ...". That is location 691 on my kindle.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Seishin]

I too am using a kindle and missed this in Jundo's post the first time I read it: "stopping at "WHEN THE TEN THOUSAND DHARMAS ...". That is location 691 on my kindle.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Thank you Shinshi, I must have been having a senior moment as its as clear as the nose on my face ............................can't see that either

SAT

[Shinshi]

Thank you Shinshi, I must have been having a senior moment as its as clear as the nose on my face ............................can't see that either

SAT

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Tai Shi]

Dukkhu, one like me sometimes, I sometimes have found myself in so much pain that I slipped into anxiety and was this Dukku or was it me escaping Dukku? Self and selfish, when in level 10 pain, one, I feel the walls of life blurred, this might sometimes be compared to a runners high. I've had to learn in 30 years of pain the difference between anger and fear. Fear is so horrible the walls of self melt, heart rate increases, and I cannot run, bones you know, so I sit motionless not knowing exactly what's happening. Anger? What is anger? When my world collides with yours due to ignorance and I lash out (always verbally) and then you call and anger turns my stomach sick with fear of ignorance. These are negative states leading to a form of escape. This is Dukku. Then the melting blurring, when I emerge as trusted friend of five men who I've come to trust, this is when the walls come down I feel compassion because three have less than one year that they only now realize will come plodding one moment after one moment, and they reach for the intangible, and then they want what they themselves see in others,m again I'm flooded with compassion for all five because I see them finally reaching out to other men for the first time in their lives. And then compassion becomes brotherly love. This is when I feel only for such a little while one with all human kind. The four noble truths, these I understand as I am now in old age, and soon will come death. This is when I begin to ask am I ready. The Eight Fold Path, this is me reflecting back upon my life asking where have I skimped on honesty, and in the last 32 years, there was only one thing that I'd hidden away, now for Dogen he is a poet of the first magnitude. The measure of my search in the last three years has been the Heart Sutra which presents "the true teachings of the Buddha." I am body and mind, so what5 of emotion? Then my concepts of mind are torn out from the first part of the Heart Sutra frightens me, so if there is nothing? My whole adult life has in fact demanded that life of the "mind" was basis for my existence, WIFE, Daughter, Father, even brother and mom. I demanded that they read the books I read, or at least discussed the great works of literature and ideas. This the Buddha tears away, then gives it back. My question, what is being in Buddha world, please enplane five Shandas? Am I really getting old, or am I? Is there no death? Why what is meant?

Tai Shi
swimming int sea, flying into sky
sat/lah
Gassho

[Jinyo]

I have to agree - 'getting' this intellectually is one thing - living what clarity/realisation we have is quite something else.
I guess that's why daily practice is important - or at least to keep returning to the principle of it.

The way I understand it - 'feel' it - is that dropping the hard borders is a place of empathy for other human beings and the planet.
There is a way of individual development/insight - but if this doesn't encompass our relationship to others its a bit pointless.

For the above reason I'm uncertain about the metaphor of things (good or bad) being a theatre - the scenery of our life. I think there's a
danger that that could be misunderstood - a way to sooth ourselves into thinking 'well things don't really matter because it's all just theatre'.

I know you don't teach the above Jundo - that you're very insistent that things do matter - and 'off the cushion' we must go into the world and
work hard for change - but even so. I also think 'pure acceptance' in terms of one's own suffering is much easier to achieve than witnessing the
suffering of others. My heart breaks on this many times over and meditating on the relative/absolute doesn't always help. I feel holding the two together is the paradox of our practice and hard to put into words but I do agree there is a 'reservoir ' we can dip into - and perhaps that becomes more natural after many years of practice. I like the metaphor of a dimmer switch (I once made a visual image for something similar when trying to track my emotional reactivity) - I think it's a very useful metaphor.

Just some thoughts,

Gassho

Jinyo

sat today

[Ryoku]

The first three sections of the text describe a Buddhist teaching that took a long time for me to begin to understand. The teaching of 'no self' was referenced in so many sources yet to practice and live that truth seemed foreign. I appreciate Rev. Okumura's description of how the idea of 'self' is still useful as a 'tool, symbol, sign, or concept'. We still need to function in the world and it is of benefit, although viewing this 'self' and the skandas which comprise it as fixed and the only reality leads to 'dukka' or 'samsara'. Ultimately, I do feel the borders between myself and the rest of the world get a little softer when I recognize the small 'self' for what I need it for and not the only reality. When each component of what we think makes up the self is examined, it becomes easier to see that the 'self' is a concept our mind creates, its building blocks constantly changing and impermanent. I think part of our practice is observing both 'self' and 'no self', and keeping the difference between them in mind as we experience this life.

Gassho,

Ryoku

ST/LAH

[Tai Shi]

It is not self nor Self! There is no concept because Master Dogen pushes the reader to rise above reading hand is only word for hand it is not hand nor is self self can be body or personality or reputation or in some religion soul, or ghost or God or deacon or gentile or Jew or Any nationality or dignitary or even nonentity or she or he or you or me. The list can seemingly be endless because language has limits so the list only seems endless and she as self represents humanity or what is human a human. See the list can be made to appear endless. And Master Dogen is Dogen the priest Dogen husband or she is his wife. These names for self are all labels so see language has limits so if we rise above labels there is no self and this is what Dogen a man an his name not him and maybe there are seemingly limitless human Dogens or no self! Language itself is slippery, Just like the word is only connector oh all we have is metaphor no real thing just comparison and non-comparison which is nothing or no self, Here an now is tangible not then when history then when never but here and now in this space made up of electricity and tiny circuits and glass and plastic no writing is anything except what we agree upon even Japanese kongi or American English or English English or all dialects and then all other languages so who is to say there is space and time so here and now is tangible and that’s all we have the past is just a good bye and future is but fiction.

Tai Shi
Sat/lah
Gassho


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