Realizing Genjokoan - Chapter 3 to P 31

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40188

    Realizing Genjokoan - Chapter 3 to P 31

    Dear Selfs (who are not Selfs),

    We will read Chapter 3 up until the middle of P. 31 (stopping at "WHEN THE TEN THOUSAND DHARMAS ... ). However, I think we will spend a couple of weeks here before moving on, in order to let folks catch up. Also, because this part is rather important stuff and a little heavy, man.

    There is no "self" to read this week's chapter! (But, in that case, who is gonna read it!?)

    I happen to think that the teaching this week is --the-- central teaching of Buddhism. It is right at the heart of what the Buddha is believed to have realized under the Bodhi Tree according to about all the various schools of Buddhism from Thailand to Tokyo to Tibet (although, of course, folks quibble abut the exact meaning somewhat).

    There is no "self." All things are impermanent. Sounds scary, but it is actually the key to Liberation for Zen folks and others. In a nutshell, "no self" sounds bad ... until you realize that, by dropping the hard borders between your small "me, myself, i" and the rest of the world outside you, all the friction between you and the world vanishes too. The little "self" is always judging the world, running from the things it fears, worried about this or that. So, when the borders between self and other drop, so does all that judging, fear, worry etc.

    "Impermanence" sounds bad, because the things we love (including our life) are all impermanent, until we learn to totally "go with the flow" of that impermanence. When we find that we are just the world flowing ... and are ready to allow it to flow ... we flow too. In fact, when we realize the world is us and we are the world ... we are the flow, and have been all along!

    I have a simple definition for Dukkha as follows ...

    No one English word captures the full depth and range of the Pali term, Dukkha. It is sometimes rendered as “suffering,” as in “life is suffering.” But perhaps it’s better expressed as “dissatisfaction,” “anxiety,” “disappointment,” “unease at perfection,” or “frustration” — terms that wonderfully convey a subtlety of meaning.

    In a nutshell, your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. The mental state that may result to the “self” from this disparity is Dukkha.
    .
    Shakyamuni Buddha gave many examples: sickness (when we do not wish to be sick), old age (when we long for youth), death (if we cling to life), loss of a loved one (as we cannot let go), violated expectations, the failure of happy moments to last (though we wish them to last). Even joyous moments — such as happiness and good news, treasure or pleasant times — can be a source of suffering if we cling to them, if we are attached to those things.
    The sickness, the apparent death (of the part that feels separate from the world anyway), the other events by themselves are not "Dukkha." They are what they are. Our reaction between the ears is "Dukkha."

    As you notice, that includes the happy if we cling to the happy. Obviously, dropping the self/other friction ... and learning to totally "go with the flow" of impermanence ... is a big treatment or cure for such Dukkha.

    Questions -

    In Zazen, have you experienced the hard borders between self and not self (the rest of the world) soften a bit or drop away?

    Have you ever had times when you stopped resisting, and totally "went with the flow" of events ... thus dropping the "Dukkha" from a hard time in your life? Even felt that you were the flow and the flow just you?

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-28-2019, 10:54 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Seishin
    Member
    • Aug 2016
    • 1522

    #2
    Looking forward to this section but collecting my thoughts over Chapter Two, while my no mind recovers from a Kanji explanation overdose.

    Sat /LAH


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

    Comment

    • MyoHo
      Member
      • Feb 2013
      • 632

      #3
      Me too!

      Gassho

      MyoHo
      Mu

      Comment

      • Shinshi
        Treeleaf Unsui
        • Jul 2010
        • 3637

        #4
        Thank you Jundo. I got a bit carried away and read right past the stopping point.

        Gassho, Shinshi

        SaT-LaH
        空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
        There are those who, attracted by grass, flowers, mountains, and waters, flow into the Buddha way.
        -Dogen
        E84I - JAJ

        Comment

        • Mp

          #5
          Thank you Jundo. =)

          Gassho
          Shingen

          Sat/LAH

          Comment

          • Shonin Risa Bear
            Member
            • Apr 2019
            • 923

            #6
            Question 1: yes.

            Question 2: yes.

            I used to be a wildland firefighter, way back in the day. There is such a thing as becoming "one with the fire," without a thought (at least any thought that can be recalled later) or much in the way of concern for self for hours at a time. The trick, though, is to be able to sustain the worry-free or whine-free zone somewhat, yes? This has continued to elude, though it comes and goes. _()_

            gassho
            doyu sat/lah
            Visiting priest: use salt

            Comment

            • Onkai
              Treeleaf Unsui
              • Aug 2015
              • 3003

              #7
              Thank you Jundo. This is a wonderful book and discussion.
              In Zazen, have you experienced the hard borders between self and not self (the rest of the world) soften a bit or drop away?
              I feel this happen when I'm engrossed with doing something whole-heartedly. I don't know if that is the same thing as what is being talked about here. It could be just focusing on the breath, or it could be housecleaning, or it could be working on a project. Time and space and self are forgotten or let go.
              Have you ever had times when you stopped resisting, and totally "went with the flow" of events ... thus dropping the "Dukkha" from a hard time in your life? Even felt that you were the flow and the flow just you?
              When the bottom falls out from beneath me, and I don't resist, I don't get upset, and eventually I land back to home and family and Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

              Gassho,
              Onkai
              Sat
              美道 Bidou Beautiful Way
              恩海 Onkai Merciful/Kind Ocean

              I have a lot to learn; take anything I say that sounds like teaching with a grain of salt.

              Comment

              • Shonin Risa Bear
                Member
                • Apr 2019
                • 923

                #8
                Onkai, that is well said. _()_ _()_ _()_

                gassho
                doyu sat lah
                Visiting priest: use salt

                Comment

                • MyoHo
                  Member
                  • Feb 2013
                  • 632

                  #9
                  To the first question: yes but I dont wish to discuss it woth words.
                  To the second question the same but this is the best I can do:
                  When listening to the trees,
                  they speak of this.
                  When looking to the sky,
                  the clouds show it.
                  Even the ever patient stone,
                  that mostly has very litle to say,
                  speaks of this flow no end.
                  About time and place and timeless things
                  just the way they are, just so.

                  Gassho

                  MyoHo
                  Mu

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40188

                    #10
                    Just added one sentence to my top post ...

                    The sickness, the apparent death (of the part that feels separate from the world anyway), the other events by themselves are not "Dukkha." They are what they are. Our reaction between the ears is "Dukkha."

                    Gassho, J

                    STLah
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Shinshi
                      Treeleaf Unsui
                      • Jul 2010
                      • 3637

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jundo

                      In Zazen, have you experienced the hard borders between self and not self (the rest of the world) soften a bit or drop away?
                      This has happened for me at times. Oddly enough it has also happened on occasion when I am doing something completely random. Felt it strongly once shopping in a mall. Once while I was walking in the BLM.

                      Originally posted by Jundo
                      Have you ever had times when you stopped resisting, and totally "went with the flow" of events ... thus dropping the "Dukkha" from a hard time in your life? Even felt that you were the flow and the flow just you?
                      Don't really have an example from a hard time in my life. But I have experienced this many times - mostly either doing a sport or working/riding the horses. Often times in sport you completely drop any evaluation of good/bad, right/wrong. There is just the flow of the game unfolding around you. If you stop to think/evaluate for even a moment then you are a step behind. I also often experience this state when I am running. You are the run, you are the race. You don't think, you just are. Personally I am always shocked when people listen to music when running.

                      Same thing with horses. When you really connect with your horse. When you are really communicating with them it is if they are connected to you. You drop all cues and it just becomes intention - faster, slower, turn and it all happens. It as if you and the horse are one being. Self drops away and you are just in the flow of riding.

                      As I write this I realize that I have had this when playing music a handful of times. Where sense of self just drops away and you seem to become a conduit for the music. It doesn't come from you it comes through you.

                      Gassho, Shinshi

                      SaT-LaH
                      空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
                      There are those who, attracted by grass, flowers, mountains, and waters, flow into the Buddha way.
                      -Dogen
                      E84I - JAJ

                      Comment

                      • Jishin
                        Member
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 4821

                        #12
                        Hi,

                        Question 1. Yes in most sessions.

                        Question 2. Yes. Doctors must be fully focused (self and other join to become one) on their work because mistakes can be very costly. So it's second nature at work. It is much more difficult outside of the office.

                        Gasho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

                        Comment

                        • Meitou
                          Member
                          • Feb 2017
                          • 1656

                          #13
                          I just want to thank you for a couple of weeks grace in this discussion, I'm catching up ok on the reading, but finding it hard to put what I feel into words - at least any that make sense.
                          Gassho
                          Meitou
                          satwithyoualltodaylah
                          命 Mei - life
                          島 Tou - island

                          Comment

                          • Kotei
                            Treeleaf Unsui
                            • Mar 2015
                            • 4138

                            #14
                            Hello,

                            I enjoyed reading the clear description of the four seals. The source of relief from suffering.

                            Regarding the questions...
                            Crossing the border of self/no-self to me is more like knowing that it happened and feeling it reverberating, than actually experiencing itself.
                            There where times in the past, where it felt a bit strange and uncomfortable, loosing grip of the self and there are times where the self, that becomes conscious again, recognises that it wasn't there a moment ago.

                            Merging with the things I do. Creating things. Samu in the house and garden. Moments in making music... Are circumstances, where I feel the self dropping away. Just being the action that is done.

                            I was suffering from anxiety and panic attacks in the past more than I do now.
                            Every time this happened, it was because of thinking too much and got worse, the more I got away from 'just going with the flow'. Dukkha.
                            It softens when finding the switch and flowing along.
                            It's a very bodily experience of what Dukkha is and how stopping resistance can bring immediate relief from suffering.

                            Thank you.
                            Gassho,
                            Kotei sat/lah today.
                            義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

                            Comment

                            • Onka
                              Member
                              • May 2019
                              • 1575

                              #15
                              Apologies comrades. I'm still catching up but am trying to keep abreast of insights gained and generously shared.
                              Gassho
                              Anna

                              Sat today
                              穏 On (Calm)
                              火 Ka (Fires)
                              They/She.

                              Comment

                              Working...