Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 5

[Tb]

Hi.

Yes, good start rich.

And thank you all for your efforts.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

#Sat2day

[Joyo]

I will admit, I'm a bit behind on our weekly readings. However, the turtle is plugging along---slowly =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Risho]

The turtle of no rank? Sorry, it's Daizan's fault

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Joyo]

The turtle of no rank? Sorry, it's Daizan's fault

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

lol!!! that's a good one.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today (as a turtle of no rank)

[Onkai]

This is a great discussion. I needed to read this chapter a few times to make sense of it. Today I saw Jundo's "Buddha Basics XIII No Self No Problem" (a sit-a-long), and that helped me better understand this chapter.

I liked the story, about the squashes, showing interconnectedness.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

[Jundo]

We are more or less halfway through the book. Let's take another week here to allow some folks to catch up, and also catch our breath.

Gassho, Jundo

[Joyo]

We are more or less halfway through the book. Let's take another week here to allow some folks to catch up, and also catch our breath.

Gassho, Jundo

Thank you =)

Gassho,
joyo
sat today

[Jakuden]

Thank you, Doshin. Your attention tells me I'm not just spewing into the void which being online sometimes lends itself to.
^^ForestSatToday^^ Forest Dweller

Sometimes I wish this forum had a "like" button (I think maybe it does actually, on Tapatalk, but no one seems to use it) just because I often read wonderful things but do not wish to comment on every single one of them. I appreciate every post and mostly keep up on all the threads going even though I don't always comment.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Washin]

Sometimes I wish this forum had a "like" button (I think maybe it does actually, on Tapatalk, but no one seems to use it)

That's the reason I sometimes go to Tapatalk to just hit the like without commenting anything (looks like we're spoiled by facebook in this regard )

Gassho
Washin
ST

[Joyo]

I have to admit, having read this chapter and reading the words "faith" and "believe" being used, my initial reaction was to cringe and be somewhat turned off. I've shared this here before, I was raised very strict Christian and devoutly practiced for many years. When I walked away from this religion, my father shunned me for 2 years, and I had many other family members treat me very poorly. To this day, I have to keep my distance from them, for my own mental well-being.

Time has healed many of my wounds, and I have learned to live, very happily, with very little to no contact from parents and other relatives. However, I found it interesting to notice my reaction when I read these words today. It was like pressing on a pressure point on a painful spot on your body. It hurt. I don't think I'm open to using the words faith and believe in my Buddhist practice. However, I'm also beginning to see how the universal self somehow embraces all of my story, my experiences, and somehow it is all ok just as it is.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Sozan]

I have to admit, having read this chapter and reading the words "faith" and "believe" being used, my initial reaction was to cringe and be somewhat turned off.

Hi Joyo,
Having been raised Roman Catholic, I had the same gut reaction. However, the simple way to get past this is by sitting Zazen. There "faith and Be leaf" are replaced with experience and reality.

Gassho,
Sozan

s@2day

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

I finished reading the chapter at least a week ago and I thought about what I would post a few times. So my ideas might be over cooked and I'm tired but here goes.

I think Uchiyama Roshi discussion of the small self and big self can get gestured at in a few ways.

The first way I think we can approach is it through a first person/ 3rd person point of view distinction. When I'm on the bus I'm busy thinking about this or that and many of these ideas are related to my plans or things I don't like/ do like etc... they are very relevant to me and my life. But if someone else is on the bus and they see me there I'm just a person riding the bus. I'm not the center of anything in particular I'm just a piece of landscape or furniture. For this other person, unless I'm known to them, that is I have some special significance (love, hate, curiosity etc...) Neither perspective is wrong I'm both a thing that thinks and also a thing

The second way is consider Anatta (or non-self) and Anicca (impermanence.) If we try to apply Anatta to things in the world we look for the causes of things (events and occurrences that are the precursors to other things and events e.g. my parents meeting etc... ) So thing that we encounter, including ourselves are thing that are some point didn't exist at some point won't exist. Not only this, the time that we do exist we require constant interaction with our environment to maintain the stability of our bodies e.g. oxygen, gravity, food and water lest we die sooner rather than later. Not only our external environment but also the environment for any particular part of our body (the relationship between my heart and other parts of my body) need to be just so to keep this body going. Why does my heart beat? I don't know but I'm pretty sure its not because I will it. But without a beating heart the body dies and the small self comes undone.

We don't see this because we are busy with our activities and projects and fears etc... Mostly things that deal with immediate issues such as survival and status. But when we can let go of those ideas and we start to see impermanence of the things we encounter and how they are the product of products (or caused by causes) we can see how we are at home in this world the way an apple is at home in an apple tree.


I had a few other thoughts on the faith stuff but I can't remember.


Gassho
Sat today
Adam

[Tai Shi]

I am late with the book Opening The Hand of Thought as I am changing medications and have received a powerful shot in my right knee, and yet I have begun reading and I plan to stay home all day and read. So far I find this book very beautiful.

Elgwyn
sat today
Gassho

[Tai Shi]

Up early I have finished all but a few of the notes of Uchiyamas beautiful book and as I will have time now to respond and participate in discussion, soon I shall read other's comments and give some thought to zazen for the sake of zazen and not expecting reward, and as a lay member, I hope to do a lot of listening.

Elgwyn
Calm Poetry
sat today
Gassho

[AlanLa]

Belief: 1) to become clear and pure in actualizing the reality of universal life, and to do zazen is to express this belief; 2) to not doubt that we are already living out the reality of our indivisible life. In other words, since we are already living out a universal/indivisible life (whether we know it or not), then actualize it by doing zazen (in order to more fully know it). I enjoy how these definitions reflect back on each other. This is the chapter, and specific section, that gave me the first line of my signature below: Falth/Trust. I had forgotten where it came from, so this was a nice reunion for us.

Heaven or hell: Since both form life's scenery, and are just scenery, there is no point in liking one scene over another, because whatever scene I am in will pass at some point on to another scene, so all I can do is play the scene I am in the best way I can in order to do justice to the whole play we call life. Such is the Buddhist Way that everything is sacred, even hell. This is sort of the Courage/Love signature line, but I think there are more direct references somewhere in my previous studying.