Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 5

[Jundo]

Zazen and the True Self ...


I am writing a book with an old friend, a theoretical physicist, in which he shoots out an idea from physics and I respond from a Zen point of view (not sure if the book will ever be finished, as we only have a few pages so far) ...

... but one idea we both kinda agree with is that, from one point of view, we are not just separate individuals. Whatever the universe is, that is the stuff that we are. As I put it in the book, when you sneeze, one way to look at it is that it is the universe sneezing with your nose (which is just the universe too). We are literally the universe come alive, the life of the party! An aspect of our Zen Practice is to get past our small self to realize such fact. Enjoy the Party!

Uchiyama Roshi may be a little fuzzy in nailing down what is this Universal Self ... but perhaps one has to be. The more one tries to stick a name and definition on it, the further one gets. If you try to call it Amida Buddha, God, Stanley, the Universe, Matter and Energy, Emptiness, True Mind, True Self, Universal Self ... well, you do an injustice. Best perhaps to say (in my opinion) that Zen Folks know some viewless view which is very Whole and Positive which is us and us just that.

Some people struggled in Chapter 1 with Uchiyama's statements such as "when you die, your universe goes with you", so I will briefly link to what I said there:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14099-NEW-BOOK-Opening-the-Hand-of-Thought-Chapter-1&p=170279&viewfull=1#post170279

Remember that, as you read this book, it is the universe reading!

So, what does the universe have to say about this chapter?

Gassh, J

[Jishin]

Hi,

The universe pleases itself with text bellow found in this chapter:

"Sawaki Roshi used to describe zazen as “the self selfing the self.” Usually people assume that they are born onto a stage or into a world that already exists, that they dance around on the stage for a while and then leave when they die. Actually, though, when I am born, I give birth to my world as well! I live together with that world; therefore, that world forms the contents of my self. Then, when I die, I take the world with me; that is, my world dies with me. That is the rationale behind Sawaki Roshi’s noncommonsensical expression, “self selfing the self.” I describe it as living out your own life through all the circumstances you may encounter. You give birth to, live out, and die together with your world."

"Heaven or hell, love or hate,
No matter where I turn
I meet myself.
Holding life precious is
Just living with all intensity
Holding life precious."

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Myosha]

Hello,

Describing the ineffable cures boredom.^^


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[ForestDweller]

I, too, like Jundo, am writing a book which I'm pleased to say is half finished (roughly). The core is around my martial arts teacher's life and teachings -- he's also a Buddhist priest and the lineage holder for his samurai family. I bring this up because in answer to Jundo's question -- what does the universe have to say about this chapter? -- my work with my teacher would answer: Don't just say something; do something. The only way to understand the lives we are living is through experience, even when that experience is just breathing in and out -- truly, this is one of the better ways. Too often we are caught in struggling to shape the ineffable through language which is an exercise in repetitive futility. Most of us have experienced the feeling of merging, losing the boundaries of self whether it be in meditation, sex, mountain climbing, or martial arts (and innumerable other EXPERIENCES); however when we try to bring that experience into a permanent statement, it always falls short. So why do we try? We try because we are attached to the sensations of such experiences, and well, we all know where that takes us. Still, we are the apes with language and we feel forced to try to frame our universal experiences into neat little letters and words. As Myosha says, "Describing the ineffable cures boredom." Well, that's one reason to keep trying. The other is that here and there we are blessed with "turning words" that actually do take us deeper into experience and understanding. ^^ForestSatToday^^ ForestDweller

[Doshin]

I, too, like Jundo, am writing a book which I'm pleased to say is half finished (roughly). The core is around my martial arts teacher's life and teachings -- he's also a Buddhist priest and the lineage holder for his samurai family. I bring this up because in answer to Jundo's question -- what does the universe have to say about this chapter? -- my work with my teacher would answer: Don't just say something; do something. The only way to understand the lives we are living is through experience, even when that experience is just breathing in and out -- truly, this is one of the better ways. Too often we are caught in struggling to shape the ineffable through language which is an exercise in repetitive futility. Most of us have experienced the feeling of merging, losing the boundaries of self whether it be in meditation, sex, mountain climbing, or martial arts (and innumerable other EXPERIENCES); however when we try to bring that experience into a permanent statement, it always falls short. So why do we try? We try because we are attached to the sensations of such experiences, and well, we all know where that takes us. Still, we are the apes with language and we feel forced to try to frame our universal experiences into neat little letters and words. As Myosha says, "Describing the ineffable cures boredom." Well, that's one reason to keep trying. The other is that here and there we are blessed with "turning words" that actually do take us deeper into experience and understanding. ^^ForestSatToday^^ ForestDweller

Nicely said.

Doshin
Sattoday

[Roland]

Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 5

I struggle with this chapter. For now I hardly had this feeling of deep connection with the whole of the universe. I do realize the atoms in my body ultimately relate to the deep cosmos, but I would not call those atoms and molecules a Self, universal or not, they are just atoms and molecules like the dirt on my shoes. It seems even more problematic to talk about 'life pervading the whole of the universe' - how to define 'life' in this way? An animal, a flower, a micro-organism can be called 'alive' while we would refrain from calling a rock 'alive' - especially a rock devoided of living organisms. Of course one can stretch words - but then one ends up in 'the night in which all cows are grey' as Hegel said. I guess deep meditative states make us experience a kind of universal unity, but forgive me for being sceptical as I think that such feelings are responses of our bodies which are forced into long periods of relaxed motionless states and not so much insights into a Universal Self.

Gassho
Roland
#SatToday

[Rich]

We are so caught up in our minds that we have lost the ability to feel the energy of a tree 🎄 or rock. The connection is found in our hearts. Long live tree huggers -)😊

SAT today

[Risho]

I struggle with this chapter. For now I hardly had this feeling of deep connection with the whole of the universe. I do realize the atoms in my body ultimately relate to the deep cosmos, but I would not call those atoms and molecules a Self, universal or not, they are just atoms and molecules like the dirt on my shoes. It seems even more problematic to talk about 'life pervading the whole of the universe' - how to define 'life' in this way? An animal, a flower, a micro-organism can be called 'alive' while we would refrain from calling a rock 'alive' - especially a rock devoided of living organisms. Of course one can stretch words - but then one ends up in 'the night in which all cows are grey' as Hegel said. I guess deep meditative states make us experience a kind of universal unity, but forgive me for being sceptical as I think that such feelings are responses of our bodies which are forced into long periods of relaxed motionless states and not so much insights into a Universal Self.

Gassho
Roland
#SatToday

Zen's all about skepticism; please don't stop questioning. If you just accept what you are told, what the hell good is that? What Myosha said is pretty funny and aptly said: "Describing the ineffable cures boredom" I love it

So how the hell do you describe it? That's why I think being a zen teacher has got to be pretty difficult. You are trying to use words to point to something that is completely beyond description. Some things are so frustrating because if a zen teacher means that, why don't they just say that? Why all the crazy talk?

But I've found that after practicing, something just opens up and it starts to make sense. And then it won't, and then it does again; it's an unending rabbit hole: practice and realization.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Roland]

Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 5

Yes Risho, it's also about 'how to describe it'. I do like the expression 'softening of the boundaries' between self and the other, that's something I do experience. I'm even able to feel the energy of trees and the power of a mountain. But yet talking about a Universal Self makes me uneasy.

Gassho,
Roland
#SatToday

[Eishuu]

I really liked this chapter, although I think I need to read it a couple more times. I was particularly struck with the phrase "Nor should it be aiming at decreasing delusion and finally eliminating it altogether". I sit with this attitude of wanting to decrease delusion....I'm not sure how to drop it.

I'm also having difficulty understanding "We don't gradually become enlightened and eventually attain buddhahood by means of zazen. This small individual I we talk of will always be deluded, but regardless and that, zazen is buddha." I'd be grateful if anyone is able to explain what he means here. Thanks.

Gassho
Lucy
sat today

[Byrne]

"Letting go" means "letting go." If we "let go" of our small self, we are not truly "letting go" unless we "let go" of "letting go" of the small self. The deluded small self and the enlightened Big Self are the same. If we become attached to sequestering our deluded self to some other place or suppressing it altogether in favor of the Big Self we aren't really "letting go". We aren't really accepting life as is.

There's a great quote attributed to our 1st Ancestor Bodhidharma:

“In countless ages gone by, I’ve turned from the essential to the trivial and wandered through all manner of existence, often angry without cause and guilty of numberless transgressions. Now, though I do no wrong, I’m punished by my past. Neither gods nor men can foresee when an evil deed will bear its fruit. I accept it with an open heart and without complaint of injustice.” The sutras say, “When you meet with adversity don’t be upset, because it makes sense.” With such understanding you’re in harmony with reason. And by suffering injustice you enter the Path." (Outline of Practice)

Karma is complex. When most westerners use the term they tend to be expecting something good or bad to happen because something good or bad was done. But that's an incomplete view. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." reflects the true nature of karma better.

We do things in hope of specific results. But things don't always go as planned. In reality, things never go as planned. Not really. Because our plans are just our thoughts, our delusions. One person's plans cannot override the karma of the whole Universe. Attachment to to our expectations causes suffering. This was a pivotal moment in my practice. When I began to understand that my anxiety was just as important as my serenity, both equally empty and relevant to all aspects of my life. Good, bad, happy, and sad. All delusions experienced as reality. But to exclusively call them either delusions or reality is painfully incomplete. Our delusions are our reality. Our reality is one of delusion.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Rich]

I really liked this chapter, although I think I need to read it a couple more times. I was particularly struck with the phrase "Nor should it be aiming at decreasing delusion and finally eliminating it altogether". I sit with this attitude of wanting to decrease delusion....I'm not sure how to drop it.

I'm also having difficulty understanding "We don't gradually become enlightened and eventually attain buddhahood by means of zazen. This small individual I we talk of will always be deluded, but regardless and that, zazen is buddha." I'd be grateful if anyone is able to explain what he means here. Thanks.

Gassho
Lucy
sat today

I don't pretend to know exactly what he means but I'll give my opinion on delusion. We continually identify and attach to our thinking so in an instant it becomes delusion. We can't want or desire to stop this because that just creates more delusion. so our practice is to watch and just let it go.

Zazen itself is enlightenment. The small I is ego, mind created. We are part of something huge called Buddha nature, big mind, universal mind, god.....

Hope this helps

SAT today

[Eishuu]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks Rich.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Risho]

Thanks Rich

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[ForestDweller]

Nicely said.

Doshin
Sattoday

Thank you, Doshin. Your attention tells me I'm not just spewing into the void which being online sometimes lends itself to.
^^ForestSatToday^^ Forest Dweller