Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 4

[Ongen]

I'm lucky to be able to sit at least two week-long sesshins and a few day-long ones every year, and while my first sesshin was heavy and filled with struggeling, by now I am looking forward to them and the careless flow of practice they can provide. Sesshin is truly a wonderful opportunity to sit and fully focus on stopping that train of thought. And even while the peace fades away somewhat when we get back into our daily lives, I feel it gets easier with each time to experience the sesshin in our daily life.
Sesshin taught me that sitting really is pure joy and that boredom too is only a figment of imagination.

Gassho
Ongen

Sat Today

[Risho]

Sesshin is truly a wonderful opportunity to sit and fully focus on stopping that train of thought.

Isn't stopping the train of thought, exactly the opposite of what sitting is? I mean the stomach produces stomach acid, the brain produces thoughts. Isn't it rather sitting amid the spewing thoughts without getting attached or pushing them away, letting them be rather than being/trying to be an active participant in them?

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Ongen]

Ah, yes. You are right of course. Let me explain that this analogy is one I hear often from Jeff Shore, the teacher with whom I sit sesshin here. He is from the Rinzai tradition and has a slightly different approach than we have here at Treeleaf.

In my experience just sitting, not feeding thoughts, everything dissolves and the train of thought stops.

While that is perhaps not a goal in Our sitting, it is in a way a goal in the Rinzai tradition that Jeff teaches. Either way, it is the same path eventually

Did that make sense?



Gassho
Ongen

Sat today

[Rich]

Thanks Risho and Ongen. This is a very tricky business to explain.

Just sitting here watching the trains go by.

SAT today

[Kaishin]

Ah, yes. You are right of course. Let me explain that this analogy is one I hear often from Jeff Shore, the teacher with whom I sit sesshin here. He is from the Rinzai tradition and has a slightly different approach than we have here at Treeleaf.

In my experience just sitting, not feeding thoughts, everything dissolves and the train of thought stops.

While that is perhaps not a goal in Our sitting, it is in a way a goal in the Rinzai tradition that Jeff teaches. Either way, it is the same path eventually

Did that make sense?



Gassho
Ongen

Sat today

So really, it's not that the train stops. You just don't buy a boarding pass

-satToday

[Jinyo]

I do feel the experience of intensive practice is a thing unto itself and not an experience I will ever be able to attempt so I'm hesitant to comment. I think in a way it's a bit of a dividing line within the world of Zen - between those who have had this experience and those who haven't. I sort of understand why because all the archetypes, myths, legends and real live people we look up to in Zen have this special quality of being intensive sitters.

Uchiyama is pretty clear on the intentionality within an intensive sit - it is to remove all distractions and to reach the point where the only way to surrender to the experience is to transcend time and finally allow the bottom of our thoughts on persevering and suffering to 'fall out'.

I do believe (and have experienced myself) that there are many situations in life that are akin to this description of transcending time and learning to go with the flow of things. But I'm not sure it is exactly the same thing as purposively sitting to this end? Many life situations that bring us to this point are not chosen at all so perhaps the process is different.

Many paths up the mountain,

Gassho

Willow/Jinyo

Sat today

[Rich]

The most important thing for me is a consistent daily practice and twice a day seems to fall into my natural rhythm.

SAT today

[Doshin]

I sat multiple weekend zazens and a three day Sesshin this past year. While reading this chapter I thought back on those times. What I liked about them was sitting with others but not paying attention to their practice, focusing on mine. However, tHeir dedication motivated me. Now if I were to attempt a multi-day zazen/Sesshin by myself I know I would wander....not just in my head but outside, check on the dogs, see what my wife is up to, look out the window to see if I can identify the bird call that shared my previous sit. But when surrounded by others I sit more "like a mountain." The one thing I did learn quickly was a year ago when I sat for three days (first time in 12 years I had sat that long) that my body had changed! So now I use a chair. Point being, Sesshin requires a body ready to accept the sit. I also spend time in those sits wondering if such hard practice helps me, as Jundo says above, "all to achieve nothing to attain". Sometimes the nothing to attain gets to be a complex mental exercise that has no end so I try to get back to the ZZ line. For some reason the thought that there is nothing to attain is freeing, but that brings its questions too.

Gassho
Doshin
sattoday

[Mp]

I sat multiple weekend zazens and a three day Sesshin this past year. While reading this chapter I thought back on those times. What I liked about them was sitting with others but not paying attention to their practice, focusing on mine. However, tHeir dedication motivated me. Now if I were to attempt a multi-day zazen/Sesshin by myself I know I would wander....not just in my head but outside, check on the dogs, see what my wife is up to, look out the window to see if I can identify the bird call that shared my previous sit. But when surrounded by others I sit more "like a mountain." The one thing I did learn quickly was a year ago when I sat for three days (first time in 12 years I had sat that long) that my body had changed! So now I use a chair. Point being, Sesshin requires a body ready to accept the sit. I also spend time in those sits wondering if such hard practice helps me, as Jundo says above, "all to achieve nothing to attain". Sometimes the nothing to attain gets to be a complex mental exercise that has no end so I try to get back to the ZZ line. For some reason the thought that there is nothing to attain is freeing, but that brings its questions too.

Gassho
Doshin
sattoday

So true, it is such a funny thing, we sit there in silence, move about in silence, and yet we are totally connected and supporting one another. That too is one of the many reasons I enjoy sesshin with others. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Jishin]

Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 4

I think in a way it's a bit of a dividing line within the world of Zen - between those who have had this experience and those who haven't.

I want to emphasize a point. The folks that go play Buddha at Sesshins only do so because other people stay behind and allow it to happen. The world cannot function without those that do not attend Sesshins.

Those that don't get an opportunity to go should not feel that they have missed out on something. They enabled the sessins to take place by staying behind and taking care of the kids.

Those that attend have not accomplished anything special. In fact, they may selfishly shrugged off their duties to help sentient beings by hiding out in a sesshin.

Just my opinion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ongen]

Those that attend have not accomplished anything special.

We agree on this.

In fact, they may selfishly shrugged off their duties to help sentient beings by hiding out in a sesshin.

I'm not sure I get your meaning here, but if I take this literally I would have to disagree; isn't sitting enlightenment? Isn't sitting saving all sentient beings? And isn't staying at home all that too? Sentient beings already saved. There is no difference between bodhisatva's that sit sesshin and those who don't.

Sesshin is extremely valuable nevertheless. If you can attend one, it's worth doing so. And if you don't, you aren't missing out. Nothing is lacking.

Gassho
Ongen

Sat Today

[Jinyo]

I want to emphasize a point. The folks that go play Buddha at Sesshins only do so because other people stay behind and allow it to happen. The world cannot function without those that do not attend Sesshins.

Those that don't get an opportunity to go should not feel that they have missed out on something. They enabled the sessins to take place by staying behind and taking care of the kids.

Those that attend have not accomplished anything special. In fact, they may selfishly shrugged off their duties to help sentient beings by hiding out in a sesshin.

Just my opinion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Hi Jishin,

I agree it is an arbitrary division but in terms of training there is an establishment view (not propagated by Jundo I would hasten to add). This does set up the notion that there is an important additional value to be gained from intensive sessins.

I think what I was trying to say (in relation to Uchiyama's book) is that I can understand that an intensive sessin might bring one
to a sense of a transcendence of time more forcefully than daily sits of short duration but that there are many life experiences that
do this as well.

I think really we are saying the same thing

Gassho

Willow

sat today

[Jishin]

Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 4

I think what I was trying to say (in relation to Uchiyama's book) is that I can understand that an intensive sessin might bring one
to a sense of a transcendence of time more forcefully than daily sits of short duration but that there are many life experiences that
do this as well.

Hi Willow,

Since I will not be able to attend sessions in the foreseeable future or ever, I get resentful.

I get that it is our way to go to Sesshins IF possible but the IF is not emphasized enough. Jundo does a good job pointing this out but not good enough. Same goes for other teachers in our tradition so somebody needs to be a little contrarian.

That's all. :-)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 4

We agree on this.




I'm not sure I get your meaning here, but if I take this literally I would have to disagree; isn't sitting enlightenment? Isn't sitting saving all sentient beings? And isn't staying at home all that too? Sentient beings already saved. There is no difference between bodhisatva's that sit sesshin and those who don't.

Sesshin is extremely valuable nevertheless. If you can attend one, it's worth doing so. And if you don't, you aren't missing out. Nothing is lacking.

Gassho
Ongen

Sat Today

isn't sitting enlightenment?

- would not know. I am not enlightened. I am Jishin.

Isn't sitting saving all sentient beings?

- no. Sitting is sitting.

And isn't staying at home all that too?

- Staying at home is staying at home.

There is no difference between bodhisatva's that sit sesshin and those who don't.

- not according to you and me since we appear to be sitting on opposite sides of this issue.

Sesshin is extremely valuable nevertheless.

- says who? Somebody that attended or somebody that has not attended sesshin?

Nothing is lacking.

- it is not necessary to attend sesshin to get this point.

You need some more sesshin. :-)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Doshin]

I want to emphasize a point. The folks that go play Buddha at Sesshins only do so because other people stay behind and allow it to happen. The world cannot function without those that do not attend Sesshins.

Those that don't get an opportunity to go should not feel that they have missed out on something. They enabled the sessins to take place by staying behind and taking care of the kids.

Those that attend have not accomplished anything special. In fact, they may selfishly shrugged off their duties to help sentient beings by hiding out in a sesshin.

Just my opinion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Ok, now I am concerned that when I put on a back pack and spend a week in the wilderness that I may be shrugging off my duties to help other sentient beings by hiding out in the mountains. Let me sit with that......I am okay with that.

Gassho
Doshin
sattoday