Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 2

[CK732]

We continue to Chapter 2, The Meaning of Zazen ...

Some suggested themes (please ignore or bring up anything else you might wish):

By what comparisons do you define yourself (literally, define your "self")?

What would life be like if you dropped the comparisons?

Granted, we cannot drop all the comparisons and function in this daily world (the Social Services would certainly be at my door if I suddenly forgot the category "parent" to my "child" ), so can we perhaps learn to drop the comparisons even with and amid the comparisons? Perhaps keep the comparisons for functional purposes, but not be so tightly bound and tied by them?

Gassho, J

SatToday

Up until about 15 years ago I defined my self by my profession, income, social status, and possessions. I wasn't very happy though and began to feel like something was "missing". I had my family, career, etc, and should have been happy. After searching I discovered that nothing was "missing" at all and it was only my perception of my self that was lacking. After I stopped looking outside of me for "validation" along with the constant comparing myself with others my life changed for the better. I stopped feeling like something was "missing". I was still had my family, had a career, and everything else that I previously had except my perceptions changed and that's when I became a happier person.

Life is SO much better without the comparisons that I had going on. My relationships with friends, family, and co-workers got much better too. I no longer felt like something was "missing" because there really wasn't anything lacking. I learned that I was whole and complete just as I was. I also learned that when we compare ourselves with others we will always loose but once we understand that we, you and I, are the same we, ourselves, will feel complete and content and will be able to connect with anyone.

I hope that I made sense here, hahaha.

Gassho

Nanto



Sat2Day

[somanaut]

Juno thanks for taking the time to give a reply.
I like zazen, even when it's hard/painful/boring. I tried it the first time in my early twenties in a rinzai led zendo. And during that first sitting, I involuntarily (or felt like it was) said to myself/my self: "welcome home", and that statement was the truest that I have ever uttered. Zen texts doesn't as such speak to me, it doesn't resonate, but I try to read something once in a while, or listen to a dharma talk. I much prefer sitting. But I realise that I need to read/listen and talk/write about zen now and again, even if my failure to understand shines through, so I don't become complacent with "my own" praxis. With such a thing as zazen and zen, it's easy (for me at least) to become lost in habit and monotony. I feel different than I did a year ago, when I returned to zazen. But how much is age, how much are the events of a year, and how much is the effect of zazen. As most people in Treelaf, I have a job (masseur, for which I feel truly blessed to have), a family and a girlfriend that think it weird to sit facing a wall 2 times a day for 30+ min. And a society that believes it to be at best useless. I am not a strong person, so it's easy to become wrapped up in concepts of this and that. So participating in these forums is a way to bring zazen more of the zafu (rolled up blanket) and into the world.
Gassho
Jesper
Sat today

[Jakuden]

Up until about 15 years ago I defined my self by my profession, income, social status, and possessions. I wasn't very happy though and began to feel like something was "missing". I had my family, career, etc, and should have been happy. After searching I discovered that nothing was "missing" at all and it was only my perception of my self that was lacking. After I stopped looking outside of me for "validation" along with the constant comparing myself with others my life changed for the better. I stopped feeling like something was "missing". I was still had my family, had a career, and everything else that I previously had except my perceptions changed and that's when I became a happier person.

Life is SO much better without the comparisons that I had going on. My relationships with friends, family, and co-workers got much better too. I no longer felt like something was "missing" because there really wasn't anything lacking. I learned that I was whole and complete just as I was. I also learned that when we compare ourselves with others we will always loose but once we understand that we, you and I, are the same we, ourselves, will feel complete and content and will be able to connect with anyone.

I hope that I made sense here, hahaha.

Gassho

Nanto



Sat2Day

Amen!! (Are we allowed to say that here?)

Gassho,
Jakuden/Sierra
SatToday

[Jundo]

Juno thanks for taking the time to give a reply.
I like zazen, even when it's hard/painful/boring. I tried it the first time in my early twenties in a rinzai led zendo. And during that first sitting, I involuntarily (or felt like it was) said to myself/my self: "welcome home", and that statement was the truest that I have ever uttered. Zen texts doesn't as such speak to me, it doesn't resonate, but I try to read something once in a while, or listen to a dharma talk. I much prefer sitting. But I realise that I need to read/listen and talk/write about zen now and again, even if my failure to understand shines through, so I don't become complacent with "my own" praxis. With such a thing as zazen and zen, it's easy (for me at least) to become lost in habit and monotony. I feel different than I did a year ago, when I returned to zazen. But how much is age, how much are the events of a year, and how much is the effect of zazen. As most people in Treelaf, I have a job (masseur, for which I feel truly blessed to have), a family and a girlfriend that think it weird to sit facing a wall 2 times a day for 30+ min. And a society that believes it to be at best useless. I am not a strong person, so it's easy to become wrapped up in concepts of this and that. So participating in these forums is a way to bring zazen more of the zafu (rolled up blanket) and into the world.
Gassho
Jesper
Sat today

Sounds lovely.

You know, I think that Massage for you can be Zazen too. It is a ritual, is it not, and a great giving to someone. Lose yourself in the motions. Kinhin with your fingers.

Yes, Zen texts and ways of putting things can be hard sometimes to get one's teeth into, especially when those old guys start babbling on about "The Sound of One Hand Clapping" and "The Cypress Tree in the Garden" and all that. But, like a good massage, the sometime moments of pain are relieving and freeing in the end. Stick with it.

And even if the books or other writings don't resonate ... just keep sitting. If the sitting resonates, that is enough.

Gassho, J

PS - Oh, and Nanto Clarisse ... lovely!

[Jinyo]

Hi there,

Jesper, Jason, Kaishin and Adam, I relate to what you say. Jundo's thoughts also resonate with me.

If we read Uchiyama with a philosopher's hat on it can be frustrating - it's not hard to deconstruct and pick out anomalies.

But Uchiyama knows this and he's sort of saying '- look - at the end of the day I have to use these useless words - and it's not even that I'm trying to describe
something metaphysical - it's actually concrete - but it sounds mystical and somehow unfamiliar.If we don't relax our brain's 'conceptual fist' we can't get near to
our intuitive knowledge and the way I'm suggesting to do this is by sitting Zazen.'

Sometimes I feel like that philosopher's hat is a band of steel around my brain - it's really good to take it off and just sit.

Gassho

Willow/Jinyo

sat today

[somanaut]

Hi Willow
That is a really nice and good way to look t it. Thank you for your words.
Gassho
Jesper
sat today

[Joyo]

Kyotai, Shingen, I too can relate to what you both said. This chapter describes much of my life as well.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Kyotai]

Kyotai, Shingen, I too can relate to what you both said. This chapter describes much of my life as well.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Yes, I was taken aback on the first half of this chapter. The example of the businessman who goes to Antaij as well. Very clear and precise. I just couldn't have put it into words myself.

Gassho Kyotai
Sat today

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,


I think we might be encountering Uchiyama Roshi writing in the very way he suggests we try not to. He suggest we try not to get caught up in thought. I take this to mean not that we don't think and thinking isn't useful but think is a rather purposeful activity. Even when its a rambling random kind of thought (perhaps not for psychosis) it tends to be directed to things or about things or plans or fantasy or descriptions or a kind of act (e.g. "I do" at a wedding.) Language and thought tends to have a kind of direction or motion that highlights some things while obscuring others. Which is find and dandy for most of activities we engage in. But we tend to always be thinking about this or that. When we can relax the influence that language and thought has on us we can see how it works. We can also get a more even view of the world.

For example, when I see stick on the ground I just see a stick and move on. If I were trying to build a fire than I would see the stick as firewood, if I was trying to get a Frisbee out a tree I would have a handy de-tree-Frisbee-i-e-r device. If my dog would see a stick on the ground he would see something to smell and that smelling would tell him a lot about the history of that stick. He might also see something to chew on or maybe something that he can use in a game of fetch with his old buddy El Duderino The context informs the impression of the stick. All of those impressions of those are fine. The stick like all beings are capable of sustaining multiple interpretations. How the world is to me at any moment depends on the moment before it. This is part of the historical contingency that Uchiyama Roshi was talking about. (I think I have William James' "A certain kind of Blindness in Human Beings" floating around in the back of my head here.) There are so many different actors in the world as well as actors without agency (weather patterns, solar flares, volcanic eruptions, chemical reactions, etc...) All these things share the world I encounter and yet I still see only the world through the lens of past.

An effect of Sitting Zazen is relaxing the fixedness of the interpretation (or that which arises) of our encounters. Does a dog have buddha-nature? Apparently it depends on whose asking Thus the Zen master speaks out of two sides of his/her mouth because they can juggle these kinds of perspectives or they are not ensnared. When one thinks what is Zazen good for what else can they say but nothing? Being good for something is a judgment of the affective and thinking parts of the mind (I don't actually think they are two... but not one.) Without this judgment an action is an action stop. Its simply something I bore witness to.

So as for mysticism, I don't think Uchiyama Roshi is suggesting that to sit Zazen is to merge with a greater power or God or the Buddha-nature so much as allow the small self to realize what is always the case. That we are Buddha-nature! But I think we read this and we go hunting for the Buddha-nature because we are always in the quagmire of thought. I think Uchiyama Roshi is saying that Buddha-nature is all encompassing <were threw the looking glass here people!>

For example, as I'm writing this I'm sitting a chair. When I went into the room I saw the chair and sat down. But when I started thinking about the chair I notice that is made of fabric, it has some metal wheels with rubber on them, and I'm sure it has oily ball bearings as well. So this chair is actually a bunch of things put together in a particular way. After realizing this would I say its not a chair but the description I just mentioned? Or is "chair" short hand for that description? I don't have a good answer to these questions but they are questions that arose when wrote this. So my point, is the chair a multiplicity or a unity? Many or one? I think the answer is both or maybe neither. So I think Uchiyama Roshi is saying that when we are encountering the world with a more or less relaxed desirous mind we just see things and these things are manifestations of Buddha-nature. They are separate from each other yet they all participate in Buddha-nature in a way similar to the parts of the chair. That said, its just a analogy and pushed enough and it will fall apart e.g. the chair doesn't exist until the parts are brought together but Buddha-nature is present all along.

Anywho just my thoughts after reading the chapter and comments. I recognize they are a bit muddled but there are "lotta strands in old Duder's head." I really think Uchiyama Roshi is saying something simple that is hard to express.


Gassho
Sattoday
Dude (Adam)

[Jishin]

Dude!

_/st\_

[Mp]

Very nice Adam, thank you for this. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[AlanLa]

Hi folks, sorry I'm late. I have been meaning to reread this book for a long time, so I was excited that it got "assigned" here to short circuit my procrastination.

I know we have move on from chapter 1, but I want to make one quick comment before getting to chapter 2, and that comment is that I like the term accidental reality because I think it reflects the impermanence of things a bit better than conditioned or dependent reality. Dependent, codependent, conditioned, all might be better overall descriptors, but thinking of our reality as an accident really drives the point home.

As for chapter 2 and the debate/discussion above, Uchiyama does use circular reasoning, and thank goodness for that! Zen is beyond rationalism, so what might be the best way to rationally explain that? Circular reasoning. Think of it sort of like the swirly water when we flush the toilet... just let that stinky rationality that bogs you down go and discover the feeling of freedom

As for Jundo's questions, I define my self through relations with everything outside of me. Developmentally speaking, one of the first things babies learn is that they are no longer joined with their mother, which tends to suck, and continuously learning the depth of that separateness throughout the rest of life's journey means it's pretty much downhill from there. That's the bad news. The good news is that life would be pretty damn confusing if we didn't live by these endless definitions that separate us from what Uchiyama calls undeniable reality. So, while I may not be happy with all my definitions and comparisons, I am happy that (1) I am able to make them at all, and (2) that I can practice letting go of them by practicing zazen, which I am gong to do right noq=w.