Opening the Hand of Thought - Chapter 2

[Jakuden]

Agree with all the wonderful comments here, in regard to living in relation/comparison to everything else and others. For me, this chapter was a bit of an epiphany in another way when I first read it, as it helped me realize how an education and career in Science had limited my perspective in some ways. Science was the "key to understanding everything," or so I thought. And, in the beginning, when you first begin to study, you realize that you are trying to pin down the vast unknown by defining a piece at a time, like putting together a puzzle. However, after a time, it is easy to get so comfortable with the part of the puzzle you feel has been "defined" that you find yourself within artificial boundaries, a separation your mind has created. This seems to me what Uchiyama is saying... "some Westerners try to grasp 'self' and even the life force itself by definition. The life of the self does not come about by being defined." Similarly, language itself puts a severe limitation on what can be only understood by experience.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kaishin]

Lots spoke to me in this chapter. I must say (and this is just my own mental block), it bothers me when Zen teachers start talking about God and "life force." I know they are trying to relate teachings to concepts Westerners are more familiar with, but I think it muddies the waters and for me, I have a gut aversion (yes yes a poison) to Abrahamic traditions, so I tend to mentally close off.

For example:

This inclusive self is at heart the creative power of life. It is related to what the Judeo-Christian tradition calls the creative power of God.

Uchiyama, Kosho (2005-06-10). Opening the Hand of Thought: Foundations of Zen Buddhist Practice (p. 29). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

or

where did I get the power to choose it? I cannot help but conclude that this choice, too, has been given life by a great power that transcends my own willpower and thought, whether you call it chance, fate, life itself, or the providence of God.


Uchiyama, Kosho (2005-06-10). Opening the Hand of Thought: Foundations of Zen Buddhist Practice (p. 34). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

He early on says that there is nothing mystical about this universal self, but I feel that a lot of what follows is very mystical sounding, like the above quote.

Ultimately, for me, there is just one sentence that's really needed in this chapter:

“[universal] self is what is there before you cook it up with thought.”

Uchiyama, Kosho (2005-06-10). Opening the Hand of Thought: Foundations of Zen Buddhist Practice (p. 30). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

Sorry to bring some criticism into this thread! Again, I know this is just my own mental blockage, but thought I'd say something in case anyone else has that issue.

-satToday

[Jakuden]

Kaishin,

I had that same gut reaction, mostly to Christianity, for many years. Sitting with that reaction and letting that resistance go has helped me come a long way, to the point where I can allow the concept of God in without aversion, because after all, it is just another concept, and comparing it to what we call "Buddhism" is just another comparison. It's a work in progress.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kaishin]

Thanks, Jakuden. I'm not so resistant to those things in interactions/life anymore, just when I encounter it in Zen writings/teachings. A bit like oil and water, I guess.

-satToday.

[somanaut]

Hi all
I have decided to be more active on the forums this year, to take more part in that side of our sangha.
Chapter 2 was a struggle for me. I understand/accept, that what is being pointed to, truth and jiko, is beyond "mere" concepts, and hence cannot be conceptualised, that only continued proper practise will reveal the meaning of zazen. The way Uchiyama tries to explain it is however lost on me. But I did come to think of if the truth before we cook it up (with inspiration from Schopenhauer and his idea of the world as will and representation) as blind will before any concept, which is very close to Uchiyama p. 29: "Our whole self is the force or quality of life that enables conscious thought to arise, and it includes that personal, conscious self, but it also the force that functions beyond any conscious thought".
Zazen is...very important to me, and the method of shikantaza is what I have been looking for, for many years. However I am not convinced that the truth it reveals is any more absolute than anything else (doesn't mean it is less true either). There seems to be a lot of circular reasoning going on, both in Uchiyamas' book and generally in zen literature, which I have a really hard time digesting. The method one uses to investigate something in part determines which results can be found. I am open to debating wether or not I am using (directly and indirectly) too narrowly. Anyway, frustrating yet seminal work on this praxis of ours.
Gassho
Jesper
Sat today

[Kaishin]

Hi all
I have decided to be more active on the forums this year, to take more part in that side of our sangha.

Great, welcome!!!

that only continued proper practise will reveal the meaning of zazen.

The meaning of zazen is just zazen itself

The way Uchiyama tries to explain it is however lost on me.

I agree that it is a bit unwieldy at times.

Zazen is...very important to me, and the method of shikantaza is what I have been looking for, for many years. However I am not convinced that the truth it reveals is any more absolute than anything else (doesn't mean it is less true either).

Shikantaza (only-just-sitting) doesn't reveal any truths. It is simply embodying truth itself: life just-as-it-is.

There seems to be a lot of circular reasoning going on, both in Uchiyamas' book and generally in zen literature, which I have a really hard time digesting. The method one uses to investigate something in part determines which results can be found.

I think this is the "western" desire to describe and over-analyze that Uchiyama is warning against:

Using our intellect to come up with some answer to this we can only come up with a one-sided or abstract answer. Ultimately, all we can say is that the reality of life is as it is. The reality of the life of the self is simply to live life just as it is. Self does not exist because I think about it or because I don’t think about it. Either way, this self, universal and personal, is my life. Zazen is a way of truly putting this reality of life into practice.

Uchiyama, Kosho (2005-06-10). Opening the Hand of Thought: Foundations of Zen Buddhist Practice (p. 34). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

and

The life of the self does not come about by being defined. Life lives as real experience even if it is not understood or defined.
...
This ought to be clear to us naturally, but all the Western rationalists’ attempts at explanation leave it muddled. If one thinks about a reality that exists before the definitions of speculative thought, that in itself creates a kind of definition, recreating the problem. The speculated-about and redefined reality no longer exists prior to definition. You can easily wind up thinking that definitions are reality.

Uchiyama, Kosho (2005-06-10). Opening the Hand of Thought: Foundations of Zen Buddhist Practice (p. 32). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

Just some thoughts from this layman.

-satToday

[somanaut]

Hi Kaishin thanks for the welcome and your thoughts. One thing I would like to address is:
"I think this is the "western" desire to describe and over-analyze that Uchiyama is warning against"
Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact, that it's circular argument, where the conclusion produces the premise.
It's hard for me to discern when Uchiyama is trying to describe the ineffable nature of the dharma (I hope that I used that correctly), and when he is making more of a philosophical argument, because he seems to switch between the two.
To me it's quite clear, that shikantaza produces a certain skill (I might be critiqued for putting it that way, but that is how I see it), and that skill can at a certain point perhaps become intrinsic and thus lead to non-grasping. But that in itself doesn't prove non-grasping to be more true than conceptual grasping. You have now just become skilful in non-grasping, which is a wonderful thing. To be clear, I am not arguing against the method or actuality of what Uchiyama says, else why would I practise (or atlas attempt to) shikantaza. I believe he is right (just can't see it yet), but I think his argument for it is troublesome.
Gassho
Jesper
Sat today

[Hoseki]

Hi Kaishin thanks for the welcome and your thoughts. One thing I would like to address is:
"I think this is the "western" desire to describe and over-analyze that Uchiyama is warning against"
Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact, that it's circular argument, where the conclusion produces the premise.
It's hard for me to discern when Uchiyama is trying to describe the ineffable nature of the dharma (I hope that I used that correctly), and when he is making more of a philosophical argument, because he seems to switch between the two.
To me it's quite clear, that shikantaza produces a certain skill (I might be critiqued for putting it that way, but that is how I see it), and that skill can at a certain point perhaps become intrinsic and thus lead to non-grasping. But that in itself doesn't prove non-grasping to be more true than conceptual grasping. You have now just become skilful in non-grasping, which is a wonderful thing. To be clear, I am not arguing against the method or actuality of what Uchiyama says, else why would I practise (or atlas attempt to) shikantaza. I believe he is right (just can't see it yet), but I think his argument for it is troublesome.
Gassho
Jesper
Sat today

Hi,

I don't think Uchiyama Roshi is saying one is more true than the other. Maybe he is and I missed it but I think he's saying that a life where one is constantly grasping leads to a certain kind of understanding of oneself and the world. A life where one can open the hand of thought leads to another. Each life giving rise to thoughts and emotions that reflect their origin. Neither right, wrong, good or bad but verying degrees of suffering.

Would you mind outlining the circular reasoning. I don't have a good sense for that kind of think.

Sorry about the brevity I have little time at the moment.

Gassho
Adam
Sat today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jakuden]

Thanks, Jakuden. I'm not so resistant to those things in interactions/life anymore, just when I encounter it in Zen writings/teachings. A bit like oil and water, I guess.

-satToday.

Yes it's kind of funny, I'm almost a little startled every time I run across a reference to God in a Zen book. Just evidence that we are conditioned from early in our lives to have strong feelings of one kind or another about that word!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jundo]

However I am not convinced that the truth it reveals is any more absolute than anything else (doesn't mean it is less true either). There seems to be a lot of circular reasoning going on, both in Uchiyamas' book and generally in zen literature, which I have a really hard time digesting. The method one uses to investigate something in part determines which results can be found. I am open to debating wether or not I am using (directly and indirectly) too narrowly. Anyway, frustrating yet seminal work on this praxis of ours.
Gassho
Jesper
Sat today

Well, Zazen is a way for us to encounter the world free of divisive categories (such as the comparisons that Uchiyama describes) and judgments, this vs. that frictions, measures of time, dreams about the future and memories of the past, including even the divisive categorization of "us vs. world".

I believe we are in fact creating a new "mental model" of reality (one free or freer of divisions, judgments and frictions) to replace [or run together with] our usual mental model (which is based on divisions, judgments and frictions). It may be a mental model, but it is a perfectly valid ... not to mention beautiful and freeing ... way to encounter who we are in and as the world. (It is much as we have never actually seen and felt the ocean ... only light and other sensations coming through the senses which the brain recreates as an image with qualities such as saltiness to taste and wetness to touch and blueness to vision. Nonetheless, how beautiful it is, and how useful for sailing across and catching fish! Thus, whether we are encountering actual "ultimate reality" or just a wonderful alternative mental encounter with this life-self-world is not so important, any more than whether we are swimming in the ocean or just swimming in its mental image experienced between our ears).

Keep on sitting, our way of swimming!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Joyo]

It's been a busy week for me, I will try to read this chapter either today or Saturday.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[somanaut]

Well, Zazen is a way for us to encounter the world free of divisive categories (such as the comparisons that Uchiyama describes) and judgments, this vs. that frictions, measures of time, dreams about the future and memories of the past, including even the divisive categorization of "us vs. world".

I believe we are in fact creating a new "mental model" of reality (one free or freer of divisions, judgments and frictions) to replace [or run together with] our usual mental model (which is based on divisions, judgments and frictions). It may be a mental model, but it is a perfectly valid ... not to mention beautiful and freeing ... way to encounter who we are in and as the world. (It is much as we have never actually seen and felt the ocean ... only light and other sensations coming through the senses which the brain recreates as an image with qualities such as saltiness to taste and wetness to touch and blueness to vision. Nonetheless, how beautiful it is, and how useful for sailing across and catching fish! Thus, whether we are encountering actual "ultimate reality" or just a wonderful alternative mental encounter with this life-self-world is not so important, any more than whether we are swimming in the ocean or just swimming in its mental image experienced between our ears).

Keep on sitting, our way of swimming!

Gassho, J

SatToday

THIS! Exactly this was/is my point. Thanks Jundo. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, who cares about truth, it's a wonderful world and life that "deserves"/is more than analytical-conceptual-dichotomies. My argument was purely "technical". I agree what has to be done (to paraphrase the old buddhist saying), I just think, that we can do without the (in my mind) circular reasoning.

@Dude
I saw an example of circular reasoning on page 12.: "When we let go of our conceptions, there is no other possible reality than what is right now...". Yes of course, you just abandoned any other way of seeing it, hence you are "left" with this, but that doesn't in any way prove, that what is here is the only possible reality. You (Uchiyama) have just construed it to be so. Again, I agree with the method (zazen, especially as shikantaza), but disagree, or at least see problems in the theory. The praxis whoever is wonderful.
Gassho
Jesper
sat today

[Jundo]

@Dude
I saw an example of circular reasoning on page 12.: "When we let go of our conceptions, there is no other possible reality than what is right now...". Yes of course, you just abandoned any other way of seeing it, hence you are "left" with this, but that doesn't in any way prove, that what is here is the only possible reality. You (Uchiyama) have just construed it to be so. Again, I agree with the method (zazen, especially as shikantaza), but disagree, or at least see problems in the theory. The praxis whoever is wonderful.
Gassho
Jesper
sat today

Hi Jesper,

I agree with you ... but not.

First off, some tautologies and bits of circular reasoning are vital to expressing Zen because they cut across our usual way of encounter the world. So, for example, if I say "it is what it is", it sounds like just stating the obvious, "a chair is just a chair". However, it is packed with meaning, namely, there is nothing more to add or take away from just this. How often do you encounter life with the perspective "this is so itself and complete, there is nothing for comparison or change"?

Next, I think you misunderstand "there is no other possible reality than what is right now". When you stop thinking about maybes and "what ifs", fading memories of yesterday and dreams of tomorrow ... then what other reality is possible than right now? The minute you start to think of such an alternative, you create a canyon between the "what if" and right now. Give up the comparisons and I ask you: what other reality is possible apart from right now?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

Hi Jesper,

...tautologies and bits of circular reasoning are vital to expressing Zen because they cut across our usual way of encounter the world.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Bodhi]

Hello everyone,

I also really enjoyed reading this chapter. Tantalizing name, The Meaning of Zazen. With the discussion on the futility of comparing yourself against others (which I love), and the significant effort to describe “the self that lives the whole truth”, it seems that this “meaning” of zazen is to put away the monkey mind,what I believe is meant by the phrase “opening the hand of thought”, in order to realize this self. “Living out the reality of the life of the self.”

These lines really struck me, “The self is not universal in an abstract way; it is so in a most concrete way. There is nothing abstract about all human beings living out one and the same fresh, original life force.” The word God is such a loaded word in our culture. My experience has led me to believe that using this word can evoke strong feelings in people (often negative). I can only assume it is used here because the intended audience may be westerners, and therefore have a frame of reference with which to use in approaching the concept of “the actual reality of life”, “our universal self, jiko”. While perhaps not mystical, this concept certainly is at least metaphysical.

The discussion of Living Out the Reality of Life is comforting. “Whatever our way of life may be, that is the reality of life, so there is no possibility of living outside the reality of life.” Helps me to think that perhaps I won’t require multiple lifetimes to find that elusive Nirvana paradise I keep hearing about on TV.

Then again, I am probably thinking too much.

Gassho,

Jason

sat today