Friday, 6/22 - Beginning Zen Practice p.3

[Gregor]

I must admit, I've been a bad student. I have not done the assigned reading yet! Instead I've been reading hiking books and other assorted materials.

After reading the comments I'm very interested in digging into the book. I like the fact that there is a lot of discussion on both sides, people finding pros and cons. . .I suppose this will always be the case when something as deeply personal Zen practice is discussed. . .it would be impossible to present everything in a way that everyone would agree with.

I get the feeling that I'll like the book. I don't mind a book that may seem slightly pessimistic; in most cases I consider that realism. As far as the discussion about how unnatural our lives are, I would say that in many aspects our modern society and "human" way of life is very unnatural and out of whack with true reality of things. Just take a look at how unsustainable and destructive our lifestyles have become. I don't consider myself a pessimist, I think the changes that we need will come, and I love the opportunity and experience that life as a human being brings. . ,we are the only species able to practice the dharma.

Well enough for now, I'll keep my mouth closed until I finish my reading!!!

Gassho,

Greg

[Ryumon]

I don't get it; the book isn't that old, it's copyright 1989. You're talking like it's something from the 60s. I don't see it as groundbreaking.

Kirk

[Undo]

I said I thought it was a bit preachy. This is from the point of view as a person new to Zen who is apprehensive. I am NOT suggesting that other more experienced Zen students will just accept things Joko says more easily, but perhaps I am reading the book from a more paranoid or distant perspective.

Anyhoo the reasons why I find this section of the book a little preachy are the generalisations of ”we” think this or that, I would find it easier if Joko says “I” found this or that, or perhaps,” you may find”…Perhaps this is a no-self zen thing?

Also sections like;-
“The flexibility and joy and flow of life are gone. And that rather grim possibility faces all of us, unless we wake up to the fact that we need to work with our life, we need to practice.”
Does to me, sound more preachy religious rather than a discussion or explanation from a Zen perspective.

Kirk said “As for the bat about lives being unnatural, I agree; the author is basically saying that the way we are is "wrong", and we want to make it "right", and I don't see that as a valid point.” I agree.
(Could you let me know what the book about neuroplasticity is, it sounds interesting?)

I should also add that my copy of the book arrived the day I went into hospital for a small operation on my foot. After the opp I read a fair bit of the book and have to say I found the book very interesting and helpful (it could have been the painkillers :shock: ). Now I have been rereading the same bit over again, I appear to be reading it quite differently. Is anyone else experiencing this?

All the best,

Plankton

[Ryumon]

The book on neuroplasticity:

http://www.amazon.com/Brain-That-Change ... 067003830X

As for rereading and having different feelings, that's natural, especially after thinking about it in light of the comments here.

Kirk

[wills]

“As we sit, we find that the primary thing we must work with is our busy chaotic mind. ... opinions, judgments, memories, dreaming about the future – ninety percent of the thoughts spinning around in our heads have no essential reality. And we go from birth to death, unless we wake up, wasting most of our life with them.”

I can easily see how busy my mind is. Busy mind while sitting, busy mind while commenting on Treeleaf Zendo Forum. The encouragement to "wake up" is helping in my practice. Joko, is helping me pull the curtain back to reveal the mind for what it really is.

My mind appears more and more like a Cookie Monster. Always grasping for one more cookie. I tell myself the stories to justify my striving for yet another cookie by refining my ideas of what an appropriate cookie is. I wonder if I can trick this Cookie Monster into thinking that "waking up" is just another cookie. Little does it know that by waking up there would be no more cookies and no more Cookie Monster???

[PaxAnimi]

It is good to read everyone's reponse to the text and I don't know if I can add anything to the discussions on preachyness and natural/unnatural. I do have a quote that stuck with me and made me smile when I read it.

"The best way to let go is to notice the thoughts as they come up and to acknowledge them. 'Oh, yes, I'm doing that one again' - and without judging, return to the clear experience of the present moment."

This may be the best answer I have ever heard to the question of how to let go of thoughts.

[paige]

I don't know, I'm coming to appreciate the "no cookie" approach to cultivation. I started my meditation practice in an out-patient hospital programme teaching zazen to the chronically/ critically ill. I've since heard this referred to as "bompu Zen." :?

The class was free, and I wasn't promised anything, so I really have no grounds for complaint. And daily practice did seem to help me deal with stress and physical pain. But I was expecting a much greater "return on investment" in terms of my underlying medical condition. One hour zazen every day for months and the net improvement was a great big bupkis. Which really ticked me off.

Starting over with a teacher who took the whole "sit without expectations" and "there is nothing to attain" approach worked a lot better for me.

[Undo]

Thanks for the link kirkmc, the book looks interesting.


paige wrote
Starting over with a teacher who took the whole "sit without expectations" and "there is nothing to attain" approach worked a lot better for me.

That is an apect I like about the book too, hopefuly it will continue throughout.

[egbrooks]

I don't think Joko is preachy, rather I think she cuts through the BS and the fluff. I appreciate her direct style and her willingness to get to the heart of the matter in a pragmatic way.

I look forward to reading the rest of the book and hearing others' insightful opinions and views.

Take care everyone,
Eric

[Al]

My book arrived just in time for me to read and add my post before we move on to the next section.

I've read Charlotte Joko Beck's other book, "Nothing Special: Living Zen." One poster over in the Zen forum on E-Sangha mentioned that many Zen books give the impression that Zen is the Marine branch of Buddhism, the hardcore no pain, no gain set. Initially my similar perception of the no-BS, no pain no gain attitude of Zen was off-putting to me, but I realize now I just didn't like the idea of having to let go of all the reading and intellectualizing to actually "get anywhere." I'm way too dependent on it everywhere in my life and it was a truth I didn't like. Reading this book now, I think she has a decent mixture of warmth + cutting through the BS.

My favorite part of this opening is where she talks about sitting as playing the same movie 500 times until we just get tired of the movie, her idea of "wearing thoughts out." I think this is one of the most effective analogies I've read for the incentive to keep sitting, not to reach some huge goal or to attain enlightenment, but just to wear out our thoughts. My thoughts definitely need a few hundred thousand spin cycles before they start to soften.

[wills]

"Enlightenment is not something you achieve. It is the absence of something."

That something is our our dualistic thoughts and actions. I'm reading another book that is following a similar track. Wanting Enlightenment is a Big Mistake by Korean Zen Master Seing Sahn. He gives the same kind of down-to-earth encouragement to let go of the dualism in our lives.

I also was drawn to the "wearing thoughts out".

"There is the actual task we are doing and then there are the considerations we have about [them]."

Wearing out the thoughts and considerations of the mind is a slow process. Like laying in a field watching clouds. The more the clouds change them more they seem the same until suddenly we notice the sky has cleared.

[Gregor]

Finished reading the chapter a few days ago.

Great book, not negative or preachy at all. I agree with the other post, Joko really does cut through the BS. This sort of flakey approach has become all to prelevant in the new age and "dharma book industry". I appreciate her frankness, and find the realism presented in the opening chapter very refreshing.

I was prepared to be reading a sappy, feel good "Zen Book" and was pleasantly surprised with its serious content and "no cookies" approach.

In addition the notion of "wearing out our thoughts" is a great perspective for Zazen practice. When sitting I find that for the first several minutes my mind is very overactive. . .but as I continue to return to the moment the throughts do peter out. . .its a good way to describe this practice

gassho,

Greg

[CinnamonGal]

Re: Friday, 6/22 - Beginning Zen Practice p.3

Finally the book has arrived. Hope to catch up with you guys :roll:

First of all, I appreciate that the book was pusblished on 50% PCW recycled paper. 8)

Secondly, having read the few comments in this thread and the first pages of the book I started wondering if I was reading the right book: some guys here were referring to the author as a "she" but as far as I can tell the author was a male (not that it matters but this together with calling the author "Joko" it made me insecure :shock: Moreover, I did not see any mentioning of a dog on the first pages but of a tree (persimmon).
Can someone please explain? :?

Meanwhile, I will keep on reading the book that I got since this is what I have.

I find the connetion the author makes between truth and undeniable reality very interesting. In fact, it made me think of what I put into the notion of truth and could not think of it without somehow bringing reality into it. I was really intrigued by Uchiyama's conscious striving to actually find the truth that is connected with life, not devorced from it by some idea of absolutism. I am somewhat sceptical though that one can actually reason one's way to this kind of truth and curious about what comes next.


Gassho,

Irina

[John]

Re: Friday, 6/22 - Beginning Zen Practice p.3

I think you have started at the beginning of the 'Everyday Zen' thread by mistake, Irina.

Gassho,
John