Friday, 6/22 - Beginning Zen Practice p.3

[Jundo]

Let the discussion begin! : :lol: :roll:

[Al]

I'm still waiting on my book to arrive... here's hoping it's in the mail today! Looking forward to reading others' thoughts.

[wills]

My dog doesn't worry about the meaning of life. Wow, we are off to a great start.

First, Jundo great choice in book. Reading this first talk and student exchange sounds like I'm in an echo chamber. Nothing special, no solution outside of ourselves, watch out for trading course attachments for subtler attachments, Zen is our whole lives - a life long study. Who else has been telling us these same things. (Hint - he uses children's toys to illustrate the finer points in his talks.)

This is all very encouraging. The ordinariness of it is almost overwhelming.

Joko's differentiation between "technical thinking" and everything else is helpful. I have a sign on the wall I face at work that reminds me to "Don't believe anything you think." I get flack from fellow zennies that if I acted this way I'd never make it in society. Joko estimates that it is only 90% of our thinking that is opinions, judgments, memories and dreaming about the future. I'd say she under estimated things by a lot. I have some difficulty with this. Joko seems to point to two minds or is it one mind with two types of thinking. Which is it?

My mind is about blown - so I'll go sit a while.

[Keishin]

beginning zen practice

sorry, I forgot to log in properly.

[Ryumon]

"Enlightenment is not something you achieve. It is the absence of something." (p. 5) That for me is the most interesting statement of this section. Rather than try to get somewhere, we need to accept where we are and let go.

The dog bit, on the other hand, doesn't work for me; the author is suggesting that she knows what her dog is thinking, which she doesn't. Granted, she may not be far off, but we can never know what another creature is thinking. A stone, on the other hand, that would be a good example. :-)

Kirk

[Bansho]

Hi,

I think it's quite amazing how she tackles some major points of Zen practice in just the first few pages, using plain language and without overwhelming the reader. I've read the scheduled section a couple of times now, and there are many points which are really worth examining closely. The last question from a student regarding our daily activities and superficial thoughts which pretty much just get in the way is quite important IMHO. We had some heavy rain yesterday and it flooded our cellar, which created a pretty ugly mess of water, dust, dead insects, etc. It's really true that if you just concentrate on the task at hand and don't entertain thoughts like, 'Oh, I'd really rather be doing something else' or 'This is disgusting, why did this happen to us?' etc., it's really not bad at all. I've found that with most things which aren't considered 'fun', if you really dive into them and put your whole heart into it, it makes a huge difference. There's many other things I could comment on, but my wife and I are off to a Vesakh festival here in Frankfurt today. I hope to jump into the discussion again soon though.

Gassho
Kenneth

[Keishin]

beginning zen practice

I actually thought she was having fun in starting the book talking about her dog--because of that famous MU koan 'Does a dog have buddha nature?' (all cows know the answer to this one (ha, ha!))

[cdshrack]

i agree with kieshin...

i agree with kieshin about the dog and the koan.

other than that i think you're all being very nice. yes, i think she has some nice points and they are plainly stated, but it seems to me these are statements we hear in many books on zen.

i don't know as i have much else to respond to at the moment regarding this section, though i know there's plenty in the book that i would like to discuss. a big thanks to all of you for being here - it's nice to have a traveling zendo with me as i've just arrived in Australia.

gassho
cd

[paige]

Re: beginning zen practice

I read "Nothing Special" a while ago, but for some reason I thought that "Everyday Zen" didn't include the teacher/student Q&A. I'm glad that I was mistaken, in "Nothing Special" that was the part that I got the most out of.

I liked what she had to say about "wearing thoughts out" vs "letting go of thoughts." I think that statement would probably seem pretty pessimistic to a newcomer to Zen practice...but then the 4 Noble Truths are pretty pessimistic too, aren't they? I currently attend a Linji Ch'an temple, when my health permits - people get awfully excited over the concept of "sudden enlightenment." The funny thing is, in reading the biographies of the patriarchs, it seems that they spent an really long time studying in monasteries or sitting in caves before their instantaneous, spontaneous satori. Kind of like how Nirvana (the band) liked to say that they became an overnight success in only 5 years!

I also really liked what Joko says about Zen and work. I also manage to volunteer at the monastery (again, if I'm healthy enough). I really get a kick out of how they insist that every task be done in a certain way. I thought I already knew how to sweep a floor, but it turned out I was standing the wrong way and breathing at the wrong times. So I got a tutorial that ended with the declaration "It's just like T'ai Chi!"

And I bet you all thought "Wax on/wax off" was just a silly stereotype!

I didn't like talking about it, and still don't, I really don't know what to make with the glimpses of whoknowswhat and I liked what one of my teachers would say when I would bring it up (these rare very very brief experiences of whoknowswhat)just keep sitting.

I really relate to that, Keishin. And I like the term whoknowswhat. It kind of feels like the more whoknowswhat I glimpse, the less I want to know about the "what."

[Undo]

Hello everyone,

I have not posted so far as each time I re-read the chapter I change my opinion in some way. Here goes anyway,
To start with I am finding it a little confusing with the writers use of “we”. Does she mean “I”, “you” or “us”?
Some of her examples appear to be over exaggerations or generalisations and a bit off putting. I also found some of the text rather preachy. I will keep this short but to paraphrase pages three and four,
“Our lives are shit because we can’t do anything for ourselves, but when we practice and I mean practice like a hero, we become sane, but we don’t expect greatness.”
Of course this is probably just a reflection of how I have been reading it.

Now the pedantic bits are out the way. As a newbie to this subject I do like her example of bringing the “if only” from a materialistic environment to a zen practice. It is something I have been doing and not been aware of. I also like the sentence,”The flexibility and joy and flow of life..”

[Keishin]

beginning zen practice

"What we really want is a natural life. Our lives are so unnatural that to do a practice like Zen is, in the beginning, extremely difficult."

Well, I just don't agree with this--I don't think there is anything unnatural about any aspect of our lives. I used to think there were things that 'weren't natural.' But these days--if it's here, it's natural--it evolved from something, circumstances and situations applied various forms of pressure and voila! I think it is more appropriate, rather than to describe our lives as being 'unnatural,' instead as lives we have encumbered with 'extras.' It is the collection of these encumberances which can make zen practice difficult in the beginning and as we unburden ourselves of them, the practice becomes easier.
(not dissimilar to an overweight (I'm talking about myself now) person starting an exercise program--hard to do it in the begining--can only do so much--start out slowly, build up--and with weight loss and increased fitness, it is easier to excercise) Ah, yes--so simple....so simple...
gassho, keishin

[Ryumon]

Slightly tangential, I was reading a book this weekend about neuroplasticity (the ability for the brain to change), that mentioned how, when people were doing some specific excercises it takes about six weeks to have progress. Apparently, there are two "systems" in the brain, one that learns things quickly, and another that learns them more slowly but consolidates them. The second one takes about six weeks to start "learning".

So learning to sit should take at least that long, because meditation is a brain activity. I think that'd be the time it takes to start being comfortable with the attention excercise you do.

As for the bat about lives being unnatural, I agree; the author is basically saying that the way we are is "wrong", and we want to make it "right", and I don't see that as a valid point.

Kirk

[cdshrack]

i'm long-winded.

i'm glad that some other folks are finding parts a bit preachy and pessimistic. i'm fairly able to get past the pessimism, and willing to work through the preachy. i somewhat wonder if that's partly just the result of coming from spoken word - speaking generally involves more reiteration of a thought than written language.

with the "no cookies" gig, well... it seems fine to me as its just dropping expectations. for me it relates well to Chogyam Trungpa's "cool boredom" and things like that. and Jundo's constant reminders we're "just sitting" and that the zendo is where nothing happens - literally. though i would have to say that i do believe things happen, just more internally. i definitely notice some differences between this year and last year, and i have strong reason to believe that these are based on my practice.

as for the "unnatural" vs. "natural" debate, i got the impression that Joko is referring to the actual event that has happened vs. our interpretation of what is happening based on our emotional reactions, our filter of how things turned out in similar past situations, etc.

so, based on my extensive personal experience of reacting like a jerk, this might interpret as my girlfriend making a (joking) comment about how slow i am to play a word in Scrabble and me getting frustrated and upset and acting like a jerk because i don't sense the joke and take it as a personal attack since recently i had been taking a long time to do things and it was frustrating her. so the actual event was she made a joke/comment and the event that i perceived was she made a mean comment to me because she was still holding frustrations.

i may be way off on that interpretation of unnatural vs. natural, and when i write the words here it does make it seem strange that she would phrase it as such.

apologies for the long post.
cd

[Keishin]

beginning zen practice

Hello CD
It isn't so much (at least not so far) that I find Joko's writing to be preachy or pessimistic. What she is saying feels like truth to me--kinda like how my face looks like under the lights of the dentist chair--mabe a little TOO true for my liking.
When you look at the date this book was first published--this makes her extremely frank/demystified approach quite a groundbreaker.
In reading the preface I got to learn that she came to zen well into her 40s (I'd like to hear how that came about--I'm always fascinated about 'how couples met' and 'how people get into zen'--not that it matters one bit--I just like to hear the story).
My issue with this term 'unnatural' is perhaps nitpicking. But she seems to be telling the truth, telling it exactly, in the rest of this chapter--so I just want this to be 'accurate' also.
I am not a scholar in these things, but I think she is the first contemporary zen writer to have brought the practice to the right here and right now in this day and age with ordinary examples (I mean, cleaning the oven!)
And then, I know for me, it takes a while for me to settle in to the writer's 'voice' -- so I really appreciate the points you're making, it certainly allows me to take another look.
gassho, Keishin

[cdshrack]

writer's voice...

It wasn't you (Keishin) that seemed to think she was preachy or pessimistic - i just saw some other people had mentioned it.

I read most of the book before i realized we were breaking it down as closely as we were, and I think she has many useful things to say - and I think that the most impressive part is that she does bring it into daily life practice.

Gassho,
cd