LIVING by Vow: The Heart Sutra pp 156 - 194 (Stop at Emptiness in Practice)

[Shugen]

Hello again,

It looks like we are going to have to get philosophical! [emoji846]

Shohaku discusses how there is no”thing” beyond this phenomenal world of changing relationships. There is not something “beyond” - something to seek. Because there is no constant, the world is not really as our experience tells us it is. But, we still have to function as if it were. And, that is okay! We all carry baggage - preconceived notions based upon our life experiences. Through practice, we can begin to hold onto our bags a little less tightly.

If everything is constantly changing, is a relationship and not a concrete “thing” in and of itself, then we are also. And, because we are also, we are free to change that relationship.

Have you had a preconceived idea about a person, place or thing and have it be completely wrong? How did it feel? Was it freeing or did you find yourself trying to defend that idea?

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

[Mp]

Thank you Shugen. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Eishuu]

Thanks Shugen. Emptiness in Practice is p164 not 194.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Shugen]

Thank you Lucy! Fixed!

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

Thanks Shugen. Emptiness in Practice is p164 not 194.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Eishuu]

I found this section beautiful and very helpful. Just a few wonderings and questions...

I really like the idea of 'Ichi go ichi ye' – each meeting or encounter happens only once. You never meet the same person twice. But what about people who have repeatedly been abusive? You wouldn't suggest someone let go of preconceptions of a tiger and walked straight up to one; so there must be some common sense about people too. If someone is physically or emotionally abusive, it's not necessarily safe to let go of preconceptions and meet them as if for the first time. And generally we need that level of understanding of the world to navigate and avoid danger otherwise we'd be in a childlike state...you wouldn't say 'Ooh that fast moving lorry looks friendly, I'll go give it a hug'. How do we hold these two views at the same time?

Love the bit about Dogen saying we 'shouldn't seek after enlightenment'. I really struggle with this sometimes. I understand what he is saying in theory but sometimes emotionally I get really focused on trying to become enlightened (I realise how silly that sounds when I type it, but it happens). I think it's just another form of aversion and craving and can be quite painful. It's a reaction to the subtle dukkha that I think Daizan mentioned in his Rohatsu talk, that feeling that right here, now is not good enough. I assume the way to be with this is just to sit with the uncomfortable dukkha feeling?

In terms of the question about preconceptions of people that Shugen mentioned, in the past I tended to rather naively expect people to behave well even before I'd got to know them. When they didn't I had a really hard time with it and got very confused, and assumed it was my fault because it was hard to let go of my default position that everyone was good and kind – not sure where that came from but it wasn't very helpful. I wonder if it tends to feel more freeing when you are pleasantly surprised by someone's behaviour rather than disappointed?

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Hyōhaku-sha]

LIVING by Vow: The Heart Sutra pp 156 - 194 (Stop at Emptiness in Practice)

Great questions Lucy. I've been wondering the same things. Skimming ahead (I know that's not allowed) to page 224 "Practice in day-to-day activities" might help to answer your 'Ichi go ichi ye' question.

I was actually reading this book unaware that you guys were discussing it *facepalm*. Now I only wish I had known. Oh well there's still plenty of book left.

Gassho
Tom
ST


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[Eishuu]

Thank you Tom. That's helpful. I imagine that finding a balance between dropping preconceptions and using just the appropriate amount of discrimination is the recipe for a very alive, dynamic practice that is responsive and new in each moment.

I joined this book late and was told it was fine to go back and comment on previous sections if you want.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Shugen]

Thank you Tom. That's helpful. I imagine that finding a balance between dropping preconceptions and using just the appropriate amount of discrimination is the recipe for a very alive, dynamic practice that is responsive and new in each moment.

I joined this book late and was told it was fine to go back and comment on previous sections if you want.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[emoji1303]

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH


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[Hyōhaku-sha]

I deleted my last comment as I had no textual basis for it. If I confused anyone, sorry for the confusion, I will go back to silence[emoji850]

Gassho,
Tom
ST/LAH

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[Shugen]

Hello Tom,

The things we read here usually provide an opening to speak about things other than just the text and it’s okay to do that. Probably didn’t need to delete.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH


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[Hyōhaku-sha]

Hello Tom,

The things we read here usually provide an opening to speak about things other than just the text and it’s okay to do that. Probably didn’t need to delete.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH


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I know that you guys are probably some of the least judgmental people on the internet and I will try to be less self critical when posting on here. But still, being a shy and anxious person I feel awkward sticking my neck out. I have many assumptions and self doubts that I find hard to let go of. It makes it harder when via text because I can't gauge responses. I can turn the blender off and set down the hammer when I'm sitting but find it harder to bring that into everyday life.

Gassho,
Tom
ST/LAH




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[Shugen]

I know that you guys are probably some of the least judgmental people on the internet and I will try to be less self critical when posting on here. But still, being a shy and anxious person I feel awkward sticking my neck out. I have many assumptions and self doubts that I find hard to let go of. It makes it harder when via text because I can't gauge responses. I can turn the blender off and set down the hammer when I'm sitting but find it harder to bring that into everyday life.

Gassho,
Tom
ST/LAH




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I feel the same way sometimes. [emoji846]

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH


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[Eishuu]

Tom, I found what you wrote interesting, before you deleted it. I totally get the self critical thing, I'm like that too. It took me ages to feel comfortable posting here and I still don't always...it does feel a bit like sticking your neck out. But then I think if no one sticks their neck out, we can't see each other (don't know if that makes sense).

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Hyōhaku-sha]

Tom, I found what you wrote interesting, before you deleted it. I totally get the self critical thing, I'm like that too. It took me ages to feel comfortable posting here and I still don't always...it does feel a bit like sticking your neck out. But then I think if no one sticks their neck out, we can't see each other (don't know if that makes sense).

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

Thank you both
My assumptions that I have nothing to say and that I am alone in how I feel are proven wrong, and It feels good [emoji846]

Gassho,
Tom
ST/LAH


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[pthwaites]

Thanks all for the thoughts and ideas. To answer Shugen's question: I've had abundant experience of my preconceptions getting things wrong! In our consumption-focused societies, we have so many choices and so many decisions to make each day that we are pretty much forced to rely on these preconceived notions of what is useful or not, good or bad etc., to make each day manageable. I think this is an example of why both relative and absolute truth are needed in our lives - simple, everyday things would be so time consuming without our guiding preconceptions!

The thing that I liked most in this section was the last page or two, when it was made clear that these divisions we experience in the world are our own creations. This was really clear in the poem by Uchiyama Roshi:

Though poor, never poor.
Though sick, never sick.
Though aging, never aging.
Though dying, never dying.
Reality prior to division.
Herein lies unlimited depth.

The phrase "prior to division" really got me. I'm so used to seeing those divisions as just part of the way the world is that it came as a shock to be reminded that they are in fact the work of my mind and my culture.

Gassho

Sat today

Peter

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