LIVING by VOW: The Heart Sutra - pp 138 to 147 (Stopping at “Both Sides”)

[Jakuden]

Thanks Shugen. I think I am trying to understand the difference between the type of one-pointed concentration that can develop in mindfulness practise and develops into the meditative absorptions, and Zazen 'concentration'. I don't experience the former in Zazen really, it's more gentle and all-pervasive(-ish). Also, in the Thich Nhat Hahn quote he seemed to be emphasising the need for this more focused concentration to have 'spiritual breakthroughs', which confused me as I thought he was a Zen teacher and it didn't sound like a Zen approach.

Because I'm coming from a background of having practised mindfulness meditation and occasionally dhyanas, there's often part of me wondering if I should be more concentrated in Zazen. I know in some Zen schools they practise following the breath first to build up some concentration before practising Zazen. Sometimes my concentration in Zazen feels a bit like a flat battery in comparison. I wondered if I am doing something wrong - should more focused concentration arise or is it not important?

I appreciate your answers. I am sure you know what you are talking about a lot more than I do!

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

I have asked the same question about concentration in the past, Lucy so you are not alone. Jundo and others gave me similar answers, so I don't worry as much about the "flat battery" anymore, as long as it's not so flat that I am falling asleep or getting hooked into long trains of thought (shrug). I probably won't be able to do the Jedi mind trick or levitate any time soon, but I haven't seen anyone get kicked out of here for that yet...

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Eishuu]

Thanks Jakuden. I've been thinking, there's part of it that is me wanting particular experiences. Also, the day after I asked about this I had a really good night's sleep for the first time in ages and naturally got quite concentrated. I'm glad it's not just me who experiences days of flat battery mind...I like what you said about not worrying about it as long as not falling asleep or following trains of thoughts. It may be partly that flat battery brain isn't particularly pleasant so I'm experiencing some aversion to it as well.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Risho]

Can you see the Heart Sutra as a description of your zazen? Why or why not? Has the meaning or relevance to your practice changed?

Absolutely - I never thought of it as taking place inside the Buddha's zazen - which means it is within our zazen as well. I really like that insight.

When I first read the heart sutra, it was compelling, but I was trying to understand it intellectually. Honestly, the allure was that it was sort of a puzzle, and I love puzzles.

Like most of you, I've read Red Pine's book on it, I've Thich Nhat Hanh's interpretation, both which are really good. I've read a lot on the forums here, Dogen's commentary, talks, etc, etc.

But like with all the good stuff with zen, it just takes time and practice on and off the cushion; then unexpectedly the reason will come to you. This sort of relates to the Tenzo Kyokun. I mean getting to the real purpose and meaning of the words takes practice and will and time and energy, etc.

Reiterating, and apologies for the tangent, I really like this interpretation. Not only is this symbolic to a sitting period, but it's also sort of a macrocosm of my practice as a whole. Early on in my practice, just getting to the cushion was an accomplishment. As time goes on, you just do it - it doesn't matter if you feel like it or not, you do it. Then your practice settles in on itself. The honeymoon period is over, you aren't necessarily trying to gain something, although those thoughts come up. I don't know how to articulate this - which is why I think Dogen is a genius. He's really articulating the practice of zazen, which is a very remarkable thing but can often come off as confusing because it's sort of like explaining 3 dimensions to someone who lives in 2 dimensions or explaining blue to a person who cannot see color.

This is all experiential. I mean it's intellectual too, but this comes from our "heart" (no pun intended). We have to use whatever we have to practice - that means we study and we practice. That's why I think it's taken me a long time to start understanding where these teachings are pointing to; I'm more on the intellectual side of things. While important, that is only one component to a full practice, and I come to those limits. That's where I have to drop that and just practice, and there are no shortcuts to that. It's simply because unless I've had the experience, it doesn't resonate. Which is why it's so important not to give up with practice or reading Dogen especially - this stuff will make sense with time and effort; again, another pointer to "beginner's mind" . Basically I don't know shit - just keep sitting These teachings start to become clear just by virtue of 1. being exposed to them, 2. reading and studying in the face of having no comparable experience and 3. time practicing which will reveal the teachings experientially.

Shohaku explains there are (at least) two different ways to translate Avalokiteśvara from Chinese - Kanzeon: “one who hears the sounds of the world” who is the more familiar embodiment of compassion. And, Kanjizai: “one who sees freely without obstruction “ the less known embodiment of Prajna. The translation of Avolkiteśvara in the Heart Sutra is Kanjizai.

I don’t think you can separate the two. To me, the words of the Heart Sutra are compassion and wisdom.

What do you think?

Absolutely true, which is why the precepts are critical to this practice. Wisdom is not true wisdom without compassion, and compassion is not meaningful without being tempered by wisdom.

I knew I "stole" this. This is what Daido Roshi has to say about it:

Daido Roshi always taught on the unity of wisdom and compassion—that without true compassion there is no true wisdom, without true wisdom there cannot be true compassion. This is a basic Mahayana teaching. Wisdom and compassion are one. And at the same time, we can speak of them as two.

Here's the koan that this talk starts from:

True Dharma Eye, Case 47: Guishan’s Do Not Betray Others

Main Case

One day Guishan sat, and after sitting, he pointed at the straw sandals and said to Yangshan, “All hours of the day, we receive people’s support. Don’t betray them.”
Guishan said, “That’s not enough. Say more.”
Yangshan said, “When it is cold, to wear socks for others is not prohibited.”

And part of the commentary:
We should understand that “to wear socks for others” is a very personal matter. It is the seamless dharma activity that is the ten thousand hands and eyes of great compassion itself. It is the spiritual light of the four virtues of a bodhisattva manifesting in the ten directions. But tell me, right now, how do you manifest it in your life?

Exactly - How do I manifest this? There are no right or wrong answers here. Well, there are Right Actions and unhelpful, harmful, etc, but I mean we have different ways to approach this - this is our life. We know these "answers" for ourselves. Again, I think with all the answers we have in Zen, we have more questions, and they are personal, we need to take these to our heart to become better and better at living a more helpful life. Each of us has been touched by this practice in different ways, but only each of us can live our own lives, so the answer to how we behave with wise compassion or compassionate wisdom is one of if not the key question we need to try to answer each and every day.

We answer that by our study, by our sitting, by our chanting, by our work, by taking out the garbage, by waiting in line, by sitting in traffic, by stubbing our toe, etc.

I feel stupid for typing this because these points come from Jundo and the Buddha Ancestors - really. But this is it. Nirvana exists here and now. It does, it really does.

When you live your life in a manner of trying to always get things, it's a far cry from meeting things as they - letting them meet you. That is what our practice teaches us - if you can live like that stubbing your toe is an entirely different thing altogether.

This is a life with meaning - and a life with meaning and purpose is absolutely a gift.

It's funny because at the same time, this practice shows you "oh yeah, it's been like this all along".

Gassho,

Rish
-sattoday/LAH

[Troy]

LIVING by VOW: The Heart Sutra - pp 138 to 147 (Stopping at “Both Sides”)

For me, the Heart Sutra is more like a whirlpool, lots of tension in the beginning and then everything starts drops away, and then comes the stillness.

Reading this kind of blew my mind because it describes my Zazen sessions perfectly. Lots of tension and busy thoughts at the beginning and then my mind begins to settle and I experience the stillness. It is a layer of the Heart Sutra that I had not realized before.



Sat2day

[Troy]

LIVING by VOW: The Heart Sutra - pp 138 to 147 (Stopping at “Both Sides”)

Thank you everyone for this discussion and the previous one about the Heart Sutra. Even though I have recited it before in Zazenkai, this is the first time I have ever really studied it (due to my Ango commitment). I apologize for jumping in here because I am not reading the book right now, but I found the discussion useful. gassho

[Seishin]

Moving along....

The Heart Sutra takes place within the Buddha’s zazen. Not only is about the Buddha’s zazen, it is also about ours:

Can you see the Heart Sutra as a description of your zazen? Why or why not? Has the meaning or relevance to your practice changed?

Shohaku explains there are (at least) two different ways to translate Avalokiteśvara.

Well I had to read this section a few times before I could actually relate it to the questions Shugen asked at the start. But now its beginning to make sense but not surprising as I'm still very new to these Buddhist "scriptures".

So for starters it was comforting to read that this discourse is the sutra takes place during the Buddha's zazen. To know he also suffered the affliction of monkey mind makes me realize his zazen is my zazen. And I guess we should be grateful he didn't just let these thoughts go.

Despite reading the passage a number of times I couldn't get the correlation to zazen or at least my zazen. That was until this morning when listening to Jundo's Dharma talk, when he was referring to what Doyen was saying about the five conditions and how we to a degree ignore them while sitting - not quite accurate but I hope it makes sense - a bit like Jundo's reference to sensory deprivation. That's when it clicked. So yes now I see its presence.

What has helped me is an understanding that the "mythical" Bodhisattvas are all reflections of the Buddha's qualities, virtues, character what have you and as such a reflection of the Buddha nature. My nature, in here somewhere slowly surfacing.

What I do find as others have said, silently or quietly chanting The Heart Sutra at the start of zazen, helps settle and quieten the mind. Then that shaggy monkey starts rattling the cage ..............

Just my empty thoughts.

Sziztm