LIVING by VOW: The Heart Sutra - pp 138 to 147 (Stopping at “Both Sides”)

[Shugen]

Moving along....

The Heart Sutra takes place within the Buddha’s zazen. Not only is about the Buddha’s zazen, it is also about ours:

“ This teaching in the Heart Sutra is not a philosophical discussion between the Buddha’s disciple Śāriputra and a bodhisattva about the philosophy of emptiness in Mahāyāna Buddhism. It is about our practice of zazen. “ p141

Can you see the Heart Sutra as a description of your zazen? Why or why not? Has the meaning or relevance to your practice changed?

Shohaku explains there are (at least) two different ways to translate Avalokiteśvara from Chinese - Kanzeon: “one who hears the sounds of the world” who is the more familiar embodiment of compassion. And, Kanjizai: “one who sees freely without obstruction “ the less known embodiment of Prajna. The translation of Avolkiteśvara in the Heart Sutra is Kanjizai.

I don’t think you can separate the two. To me, the words of the Heart Sutra are compassion and wisdom.

What do you think?



Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

[Seishin]

Thank you Shugen - I've been skipping ahead through some of this but went back to the start of this section this morning. So far I have it found very helpful but some things will need reading a few times.

STMIZ

[Kokuu]

Hi Shugen

Just a quick note to say I think you mean 138-147. Probably most people caught that though.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Meishin]

Thank you Shugen.

"I don’t think you can separate the two. To me, the words of the Heart Sutra are compassion and wisdom." Me too. Compassion without wisdom creates a sticky mess. There is a time to rescue others, and a time not to rescue others.

[Complete change of subject. How does one quote part of a previous post without quoting the entire post? You're welcome to PM me rather than disrupting this thread. Thanks.]

Gassho
Meishin
Sat Today LAH

[Mp]

Hi Shugen

Just a quick note to say I think you mean 138-147. Probably most people caught that though.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thank you Shugen ... I was like wow, lots of homework tonight.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Thank you Shugen ... I was like wow, lots of homework tonight.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

me fixed it.

[Mp]

me fixed it.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Shugen]

me fixed it.

Thanks boss!

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

[Eishuu]

I feel I need to apologise for my waffley questions. I hope they're not too annoying. But here's some more...

This may be a bit off at a tangent, but part of this section connected with something I've been thinking about lately. If it's too off topic please feel free to put it in another thread.

In the Edward Conze version of the sutra on p139 it says that the Buddha “entered into concentration”. Okumura says “'Concentration' means zazen or samadhi” and that he “started to sit zazen. This sutra takes place within the Buddha's zazen. This is a very important point.”

Maybe I am being too literal, but I am confused. From what I've read, the Heart Sutra is dated to around 350CE which is a couple of hundred years earlier than the development of Zen Buddhism in 6th century CE and the practise of zazen. Also, when I studied Buddhism before, just before his Enlightenment the Buddha was described as passing through all the dhyanas and back to either access concentration or first dhyana and reaching Enlightenment from there. But in other accounts he is described as practising zazen. Are there lots of different versions depending on the school? Is this a Zen interpretation? Or am I getting the history wrong?

What exactly does 'concentration' mean in the context of zazen, as it seems very different from what it means in the dhyanas and the samatha/vipassana approach? One of the readings on the misusing sexuality precept that we did mentioned 'concentration' being important for 'spiritual breakthrough[s]'. Is this a Zen approach?:

“So don't worry. Don't stay up too late. Keep your nervous system healthy. Prevent anxiety. These kinds of practices cultivate the third source of energy. You need this source of energy to practice meditation well. A spiritual breakthrough requires the power of your spirit energy, which comes about through concentration and knowing how to preserve this source of energy. When you have strong spirit energy, you only have to focus it on an object, and you will have a breakthrough. If you don't have tha[t], the light of your concentration will not shine brightly, because the light emitted is very weak.” (Thich Nhat Hahn)

When I practice Zazen, I find it that mostly it does not increase my concentration in the way that a practice like the mindfulness of breathing would. Sometimes my mind settles and quietens and I feel more present. Very occasionally I've done a bit of mindfulness meditation after zazen and my concentration is dreadful. Something I read recently talked about zazen being like the kind of concentration you need to drive a car – being aware of everything rather than a more focused concentration. I definitely feel I am lacking the latter (ie more focused concentration). Is it important too and something that should be cultivated or not?

Thank you.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Shugen]

Hi Lucy,

I need to think on this a little before I reply more fully.

But for now....

Yes, I believe there are many variations on the story of the Buddha’s enlightenment. I don’t think we will ever know the whole story. To complicate matters even further, nothing was written down until many years after his death. And, we are also working with multiple languages and translations, with multiple opportunities for bias or error to creep in. I don’t think the literal truth is really all that important to my practice. The core teaching that is with us now, is.

I’m not sure how to answer your question about concentration. My knee jerk reaction is to dislike the term. I feel like it was the closest English word they could come up with and it’s not such a great fit. To me, concentration implies a lot of mental effort. I don’t know if that’s how I would describe zazen.... There is focus and awareness but “concentration” feels like “I” is being thrown back into the equation....

Thank you for your questions and please remember, I probably don’t know what I’m talking about! [emoji846]

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Eishuu]

Thanks Shugen. I think I am trying to understand the difference between the type of one-pointed concentration that can develop in mindfulness practise and develops into the meditative absorptions, and Zazen 'concentration'. I don't experience the former in Zazen really, it's more gentle and all-pervasive(-ish). Also, in the Thich Nhat Hahn quote he seemed to be emphasising the need for this more focused concentration to have 'spiritual breakthroughs', which confused me as I thought he was a Zen teacher and it didn't sound like a Zen approach.

Because I'm coming from a background of having practised mindfulness meditation and occasionally dhyanas, there's often part of me wondering if I should be more concentrated in Zazen. I know in some Zen schools they practise following the breath first to build up some concentration before practising Zazen. Sometimes my concentration in Zazen feels a bit like a flat battery in comparison. I wondered if I am doing something wrong - should more focused concentration arise or is it not important?

I appreciate your answers. I am sure you know what you are talking about a lot more than I do!

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Lucy,

See if the following is helpful a bit. (By the way, I just spotted that I pointed you to this before) ...

In general, my understanding of the place of the Jhanas (in Sanskrit "Dhyāna") in Soto Zen Shikantaza is as follows: Our way is not to seek or run after Jhanas, highly concentrated Samadhi or extra-ordinary mental states or bliss ... although there will be times when such arises. If such arises, also let such go. Also, there was an interesting book a few years ago by a Western Theravada teacher that I summarize here. PERHAPS Shikantaza is very much resonant of the so-called "Fourth Jhana" (the one the Buddha recommended as the ultimate path in this world) as described in the old Suttas before the Commentaries modified their interpretation. I have written about this before.

A book that should be mentioned is the recent "The Experience of Samadhi" by Richard Shankman, a survey of historical and modern Theravadan interpretations of Samadhi and Jhana. What is particularly interesting in reading the book is the extent of disagreement and widely varied interpretations from teacher to teacher, Sri Lankan vs. Burmese vs. Thai vs. Westerners, Lineage to Lineage even in that neck of the Buddhist world. Here is a Buddhistgeeks interview the author gave ... and as he discusses, there is little agreement, either currently or in centuries past, among the South Asian traditions either about "what the Buddha taught", or at least, how to interpret "what the Buddha taught" on the subject of Jhana. In the book, he interviews about two dozen teachers in South Asian traditions, and gets about two dozen, often very dissimilar interpretations.

We continue our discussion with insight meditation teacher and author, Richard Shankman. In this episode we continue to dissect the different kinds of samadhi and their respective fruits--what in the Theravada tradition are called jhana (or "meditative absorption"). According to Shankman there are two ways of approaching the attainment of jhana, one as was taught in the original canonical texts of the Theravada, the Pali Suttas, and the other from the later commentaries on the Buddha's teachings, the Vishudimagga. As a result we get two different forms of jhana--one called Sutta jhana and the other called Vishudimagga jhana. ...

http://personallifemedia.com/guests/...chard-shankman

Richard Shankman's book makes one very interesting point that, perhaps, can be interpreted to mean that practices such as Shikantaza and the like actually cut right to the summit of Jhana practice. You see, it might perhaps be argued (from some interpretations presented in the book) that Shikantaza practice is very close to what is referred to as the "Fourth Jhana in the Suttas" ... as opposed to the highly concentrated, hyper-absorbed Visuddhimagga commentary version. The Fourth Jhana in the Pali Suttas was considered the 'summit' of Jhana practice (as the higher Jhana, No. 5 to 8, were not encouraged as a kind of otherworldly 'dead end') and appears to manifest (quoting the sutta descriptions in the book) "an abandoning of pleasure, pain, attractions/aversions, a dropping of both joy and grief", a dropping away of both rapture and bliss states, resulting in a "purity of mindfulness" and "equanimity". Combine this with the fact that, more than a "one pointed mind absorbed into a particular object", there is a "unification of mind" (described as a broader awareness around the object of meditation ... whereby the "mind itself becomes collected and unmoving, but not the objects of awareness, as mindfulness becomes lucid, effortless and unbroken" (See, for examples. pages 82-83 here))

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=lQ_ZzFgJ1AwC&lpg=PP1&ots=Nfh_Zax84P&dq=richard%20skankman&pg=PA80#v=onepage&q&f=false

A bit of the discussion of the highest (in Buddhist Practice) "Fourth Jhana", and its emphasis on equanimity while present amid circumstances (and a dropping of bliss states), can be found on page 49.

This is very close to a description of Shikantaza, for example, as dropping all aversions and attractions, finding unification of mind, collected and unmoving, effortless and unbroken, in/as/through/not removed from the life, circumstances, complexities which surround us and are us, sitting still with what is just as it is.

In any case, all of Buddhism is precisely the same even when radically different, very different even though always the same. Much as different chefs cooking the Tofu in their way with various flavors.

TNH, although a Vietnamese Thien (Rinzai Zen) teacher, is actually very much flavored by the Theravadan interpretations quite prevalent in that country and the rest of south-east Asia. Although some Zen teachers will emphasize building deep states of "one pointed" concentration, generally Shikantaza is more a gentle open awareness. Many meditation traditions are about building concentration to have some breakthrough, while Shikantaza is about what happens when one radically drops all seeking and hunt.

Anyway, see if the above adds something, and then we might talk more.

Someone asked yesterday on Facebook about the Buddha's Enlightenment. Opinions may vary as much as there are Buddhists, but I wrote this ...

Personally, I believe that the Buddha discovered something Supremely Simple, Just This, The Wars Are Over, Nothing More Needed to Fill the Gap. He had tried extremes of mental and physical strain in his early search, and then saw the Morning Star and put down the search. Desire was satisfied, the small self seen through, and he then knew how to go with the flow of impermanence while living gently. Only later did centuries and centuries of Buddhist philosophers and commentators with too much time on their hands add amazing complexity and "distance of lifetimes" to reach Nirvana. The Zen Masters rediscovered the immediacy and simplicity of what has been here all along. Gassho, J

At such moment, one might say that, by dropping the fight, Buddha and our Soto Ancestors slipped gently right past the barrier of the self/other subject/object divide. The war was over.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Eishuu]

Thanks Jundo. Yes, I remember now that you directed me to that reading. Not sure why this theme keeps coming up for me.

This is wonderful:

"Personally, I believe that the Buddha discovered something Supremely Simple, Just This, The Wars Are Over, Nothing More Needed to Fill the Gap. He had tried extremes of mental and physical strain in his early search, and then saw the Morning Star and put down the search. Desire was satisfied, the small self seen through, and he then knew how to go with the flow of impermanence while living gently. Only later did centuries and centuries of Buddhist philosophers and commentators with too much time on their hands add amazing complexity and "distance of lifetimes" to reach Nirvana. The Zen Masters rediscovered the immediacy and simplicity of what has been here all along. Gassho, J

At such moment, one might say that, by dropping the fight, Buddha and our Soto Ancestors slipped gently right past the barrier of the self/other subject/object divide. The war was over."



Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[AlanLa]

I am familiar with the begining version of the Heart Sutra, but I don't recall ever hearing that it all took place in his head during his zazen. I am absolutely no Buddhist scholar, but frankly that idea makes no sense to practicing idiot. Because, if so, wow, was his head buzzing, making his mind more like than which is the point. For me, the Heart Sutra is more like a whirlpool, lots of tension in the beginning and then everything starts drops away, and then comes the stillness. I often recite it to still myself before zazen, like I will do after writing this.

As for Kanzeon vs. Kanjizai, I was always the type of student who tried to rectify such disparities and come up with something like this: "Dude" is the one who hears the sounds of the world freely without obstruction and is thus able to do what's needed - that whole reaching for the pillow in the dark thing. I do appreciate dissecting semantic distinctions as a means of instruction (I am a professor), but I appreciate pragmatism in practice over excess intellectualizing (I try to not be that kind of professor).

Finally, I find the Heart Sutra to be a great source of comfort. I grew up Christian with the Lord's Prayer, and it serves a similar function for me in my life, though not the same because it comes from and reaches different places, both because of religious and personal differences.

[Risho]

I am familiar with the begining version of the Heart Sutra, but I don't recall ever hearing that it all took place in his head during his zazen. I am absolutely no Buddhist scholar, but frankly that idea makes no sense to practicing idiot. Because, if so, wow, was his head buzzing, making his mind more like than which is the point. For me, the Heart Sutra is more like a whirlpool, lots of tension in the beginning and then everything starts drops away, and then comes the stillness. I often recite it to still myself before zazen, like I will do after writing this.

I think you nailed the point! I really like the view of this being from the perspective of the Buddha's zazen.

Gassho,

Rish