LIVING by VOW: The Meal Chants - pp 110 to 119 (thru Verse of the Rinse Water)

[Zenmei]

Somewhere on here in an old thread, where someone mentioned the premise that we are all just biological one-way tubes with everything else that is attached (the neuromuscular sytem, musculoskeletal system, etc) just appendages to make the tube more efficient. Indeed our basic need is centered around ingesting something else in order to gain enough energy to eventually self-propagate, if you boil it down enough! In that we are no different than a Hydra (the simple biological organism, not the Marvel monster/organization). Viewed at this level, we are indeed just trading molecules with the rest of the universe in what could be seen as the most sacred of all rituals. Something gives itself to us, in turn we give either directly or indirectly back. There is no reason to take more than we need, because it has to all equal out eventually. As yucky as I feel when eating it, even a leftover Pop Tart fits in to that equation.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

Wow. Thank you.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

[Jundo]

Somewhere on here in an old thread, where someone mentioned the premise that we are all just biological one-way tubes with everything else that is attached (the neuromuscular sytem, musculoskeletal system, etc) just appendages to make the tube more efficient. Indeed our basic need is centered around ingesting something else in order to gain enough energy to eventually self-propagate, if you boil it down enough! In that we are no different than a Hydra (the simple biological organism, not the Marvel monster/organization). Viewed at this level, we are indeed just trading molecules with the rest of the universe in what could be seen as the most sacred of all rituals. Something gives itself to us, in turn we give either directly or indirectly back. There is no reason to take more than we need, because it has to all equal out eventually. As yucky as I feel when eating it, even a leftover Pop Tart fits in to that equation.

Just to be clear, my understanding is that not all biologists would necessarily agree with the "ingesting ... to gain enough energy to eventually self-propagate" interpretation. Recently, for example, I have heard some biologists and geneticists very critical of some interpretations, by Richard Dawkins and others, that we are just vehicles to pass genes on to the next generation and such. Here, for example, David Wilson calls Dawkins someone who could not get many of his assertions published in a peer reviewed journal ...

Forty years ago Richard Dawkins wrote the landmark book “The Selfish Gene,” where he argued that the gene is what drives evolution. But what if he got it all wrong? What if cooperative groups also shape evolution? David Sloan Wilson has a new theory that could revolutionize our understanding of human nature - and finally explain altruism.
https://www.ttbook.org/show/what-if-...d-it-all-wrong

In any case, other scientists offer the observation and interpretation that, for example, we are stardust which has become self-aware of all the other stardust, in a very real sense thus constituting this universe having become sentient and looking at itself, the universe. While sentience might exist just to support the acquisition of calories to pass on our genes, there is no scientific reason yet to conclude that the opposite (or some other way of looking at things) is not true, e.g., that acquiring calories and procreation exist as vehicles to allow sentience.

Buddhists tend to note the amazing, wondrous fact that we are born and sentient despite all the seeming original unlikelihood of that fact, and to feel gratitude for all the food and ancestors, the sun and other stars, air and ground, and other sentient beings who all connect to make that possible.

Anyway, back to the discussion ...

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jakuden]

Just to be clear, my understanding is that not all biologists would necessarily agree with the "ingesting ... to gain enough energy to eventually self-propagate."

Well, it is still the basic principle of Biology as taught in college, so most of them do. But the voices of those with the new, dissenting theories get a disproportionately large voice in the media.

....there is no scientific reason yet to conclude that the opposite (or some other way of looking at things) is not true, e.g., that acquiring calories and procreation exist as vehicles to allow sentience.

Ha! On that you are absolutely right, I don't think there really would be any way for Science to prove if either theory is really true! The funny thing is, I haven't perceived this as a conflict for a long time now, because someone taught me that sometimes multiple stories can be true at the same time, depending on which eye you are looking out of

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Shinshou]

I mentioned in an earlier section that I had lost a substantial amount of weight by eating mindfully...

QUOTE=Jundo;207037]Ah, feel free to share here. It might be helpful to many folks.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH[/QUOTE]


So here goes, Jundo. I do have to mention that on reflection, I biked maybe 15 minutes twice a week, but that was it.

This whole thing got started because I had started meditating/concentrating, and that newly developed awareness led me to realize that I was never satisfied after I ate. In fact, the more I liked the food, the less satisfied I was. So I took a week or two and really paid attention to how I ate, and noticed that afterward, I could barely even remember eating. I was anticipating the loss of the food even before the first bite (hello, dukkha!). So I devised some tools to encourage myself to slow down, pay attention, and try to see food for what it is. Here were my "tactics:"

1. Before eating, I looked at my food for at least one full minute, realizing that a full plate of food is about to be in my stomach, which is something only the size of my fist.
2. Take a moderate-sized bite of food.
3. Put down my fork, spoon, sandwich, or anything else in my hands.
4. Chew slowly. I would pay attention to the food in my mouth, and mentally describe it...texture, taste, temperature, time...whatever. Chew until it's nearly liquid.
5. Swallow.
6. Take a drink of water.
7. Most importantly - take a breath in and out before picking up anything and assess how I feel...hungry? in pain? panicked? content?...whatever.
8. Repeat 2-7 until the last bite, or until I don't feel like eating anymore.
9. Lastly, I would let that last bite sit on my plate, just to prove that I could not eat it. Especially important if I really wanted it.

About 30 minutes after I ate, I would again take stock of how I felt. Do I feel healthy? yucky? lean? bloated? energetic? lethargic? It was amazing how the unhealthy stuff clearly made me feel bad, which made it easier not to choose it next time.

I read long ago in a book on the Tao that after a meal, one's stomach should be 1/3 food, 1/3 water, and 1/3 empty space...so my tactics were one bite, one drink, and one breath.

Maybe this could help someone else, I hope so.

There is an organization called The Center for Mindful Eating, but I've never looked at their stuff and had never heard of it when I started this. These tactic were just born out of a need to actually get some satisfaction from eating.

Gassho,
Dan
Sat today/lah

[Onkai]

Thank you for posting the tactics you used. I really appreciate it and I think it will help me. They will certainly give me a new appreciation of the food I do eat.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday/LAH

[Kaishin]

Yes, thanks for sharing your eating technique! I tend to wolf down my food, also not feeling satiated. I'm going to try this approach today.

-satToday/LAH

[Jundo]

... Here were my "tactics:"

1. Before eating, I looked at my food for at least one full minute, realizing that a full plate of food is about to be in my stomach, which is something only the size of my fist.
2. Take a moderate-sized bite of food.
3. Put down my fork, spoon, sandwich, or anything else in my hands.
4. Chew slowly. I would pay attention to the food in my mouth, and mentally describe it...texture, taste, temperature, time...whatever. Chew until it's nearly liquid.
5. Swallow.
6. Take a drink of water.
7. Most importantly - take a breath in and out before picking up anything and assess how I feel...hungry? in pain? panicked? content?...whatever.
8. Repeat 2-7 until the last bite, or until I don't feel like eating anymore.
9. Lastly, I would let that last bite sit on my plate, just to prove that I could not eat it. Especially important if I really wanted it.

About 30 minutes after I ate, I would again take stock of how I felt. Do I feel healthy? yucky? lean? bloated? energetic? lethargic? It was amazing how the unhealthy stuff clearly made me feel bad, which made it easier not to choose it next time.

I read long ago in a book on the Tao that after a meal, one's stomach should be 1/3 food, 1/3 water, and 1/3 empty space...so my tactics were one bite, one drink, and one breath.

Lovely Dan,

And if you add just a couple of touches ... chopsticks instead of forks (smaller bites, slows things down even more), , small bowls holding small amounts, a bit of Chanting and Bowing to be even more mindful and slowed down, leaving a bite for the "hungry ghosts" ... do you know what one has?

Oryoki!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?109-Oryoki-Practice-Circle

In fact, it is better than Oryoki in some ways, because Oryoki in the monastery tends to be more rushed than "slow and mindful." Gobble gobble gobble, not thinking about what one is eating except as medicine. I like your way better.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Tenrai]

Such an interesting thread ...again.
While I was reading this I could not help but be reminded of the TV show "My name is Earl". I hardly watch TV but my kids all liked this show so it was on the box sometimes.

The concept of repaying a "debt" or a deed runs through this show in a comedic fashion, but possibly there is a degree of value in its message. I like the idea of "paying it forward".... roughly translated I think that just = "kindness" , but also offers a great way to demonstrate to kids the power of good deeds.

Thank you for this thread and I will carry these thoughts today

Gassho
Richard
SAT/LAH

[Meitou]

This is beautiful. I can't quite say I possess Giri, but the attitude that I'm indebted to everything and everyone that supports life creates a shift in me.

In the book, I especially liked the verse on p 118:

I may incorporate that into the meal chant I use for the Ango.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday/LAH

Ah Onkai, this is exactly how I feel too!

I don't really have much to add about this chapter. One thing that interested me however, was the passage where Okumura Roshi talks about the loss of shrines in his home town, and how as a child he felt something special when playing in the grounds of a shrine, but when he returned that feeling had gone. I liked that he didn't say, oh now that I'm older I don't believe...etc, but rather that the spirits had gone away, driven out by the concrete jungle that his hometown has become. Then later in the same passage he talks about how he doesn't believe in spirits per se, but believes in their symbolism. I love the way he writes; those apparent contradictions which often contain a deeper subtext, the personal reflections, his writers voice. The more I read, the richer I find this book, there is so much more to it than a dry or academic commentary, it's something to keep close and refer to time and again.
Gassho
Frankie

satwithyoualltoday/lah

[pthwaites]

Thank you, Shugen.



This reminds me of a favourite passage from The Zen Teachings of Homeless Kodo:

"Heaven and earth make offerings. Air, water, plants and human beings make offerings. All things make offerings to each other. It is only within this circle of offering that we can live. Whether we appreciate this or not, it's true.

Without demanding, 'Give it to me!' we make and receive offerings. The world in which we give and receive is a serene and beautiful world. It differs from the world of scrambling for things. It's vast and boundless."

-- Chapter 63 (p179) 'The Blessings of the Universe'


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

I love this passage - thank you, Kokuu.

Peter

Sat today

Sent from my SM-G935L using Tapatalk

[AlanLa]

Random thoughts after reading the chapter and sitting zazen.

Thank you for the Homeless Kodo quote, Shugen. I love that book but had forgotten those quotes, even though I think I either underlined them or wrote them down in my journal after reading them.

Jut a quick comment about the idea that we're only here to eat so we can procreate and Dawkins' selfishness. I would argue that it is self-less-ness that accounts for why the human race is still here. Of course, this doesn't negate the biological imperatives of eating and procreating, but if it were all about self-ish-ness, then we probably would never have made it this far. In other words, I believe that we are here to serve, not be served, though the message in popular western culture is pretty much the opposite and trending strong in that sad direction. Anyway...

That I am still here as an increasingly creaky and disabled old man is a small miracle. I am thus so indebted to everyone and everything in my past that that has allowed me to still be here, or at least spared my passing for the time being, that I can never hope to pay it back. On the other hand, paying it forward, as Richard mentioned, is the only thing that I can do. What's been done is done, what's been paid has been paid, so all that's left is move on and share those blessings as best I can, a process that occupies the intersection between my professional life and Buddhist practice. Strangely, though, I don't think I've ever thought of it as "debt" in the way we typically think of the word in the Western world until I read this section of the chapter and the above questions and comments. I have no qualms about the word at all, as I understand it more intellectually than personally. For me, however, service to others - regardless of what is or is not owed to me or anyone else - is a form of self-care. I am learning through my practice that whatever "I" want (self-ish-ness) leads to suffering of some kind in myself and/or others. This is just me and my particular life aspects. I certainly do not endorse this simple transaction for anyone else. If I started to think of "debt" in any of the forms discussed here or in the chapter it would ruin the process for me. My understanding has always been that if your Being is in the Doing, then it's Zen. Leave the rest of those delusions alone, please.