LIVING by VOW: The Meal Chants - pp 110 to 119 (thru Verse of the Rinse Water)

[Shugen]

Time to move on:

In this section we are reminded of the role of "offerings" in practice:

"We cannot live without the offerings we receive, but we should not keep them all for ourselves." pg112

We are also introduced to the idea of "On (En)" - the debt of kindness and the need to repay that kindness, not only with our practice of zazen but also through our lives.

The two concepts very much connect to one another.

Can you think of an offering you have received, especially a "difficult" one, that has been significant?
To what or whom do you feel you owe a "debt of kindness"? Is it repayable? Can we practice, knowing we are indebted to so many beings, without keeping "score"?

"May everyone realize the Buddha's way."

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

[Mp]

Glad to get at it Shugen, thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Bodhi]

Glad to get at it Shugen, thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

Thank you for this

Gassho,
Jason

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[Kyonin]

Hi! Need to read faster to catch up!

Thanks Shugen

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Kokuu]

Thank you, Shugen.

"We cannot live without the offerings we receive, but we should not keep them all for ourselves." pg112

This reminds me of a favourite passage from The Zen Teachings of Homeless Kodo:

"Heaven and earth make offerings. Air, water, plants and human beings make offerings. All things make offerings to each other. It is only within this circle of offering that we can live. Whether we appreciate this or not, it's true.

Without demanding, 'Give it to me!' we make and receive offerings. The world in which we give and receive is a serene and beautiful world. It differs from the world of scrambling for things. It's vast and boundless."

-- Chapter 63 (p179) 'The Blessings of the Universe'


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Shugen]

Wonderful quote Kokuu! Thank you.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

[Tairin]

This practice is called saba in Japanese. We leave this small amount of food for all living beings.

In terms of practical application, where does this small offering actually go? Does someone like the Tenzo eat it on behalf of all living beings? Is it discarded in a compost? My sense is that this verse, when applied to primarily vegetarian monks, growing their own food, composting the offering is not only symbolic but also real in the sense that the compost will feed many beings. But at least here in North America only a small percentage of people compost so the offering would just end up in a garbage landfill and be of no benefit.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today & LAH

[Mp]

In terms of practical application, where does this small offering actually go? Does someone like the Tenzo eat it on behalf of all living beings? Is it discarded in a compost? My sense is that this verse, when applied to primarily vegetarian monks, growing their own food, composting the offering is not only symbolic but also real in the sense that the compost will feed many beings. But at least here in North America only a small percentage of people compost so the offering would just end up in a garbage landfill and be of no benefit.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today & LAH

Hey Warren,

You can compost it if you wish, but you can also just put it outside under a tree if you wish too. Sentient beings numberless ... even the little bugs. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Shugen]

Hello Warren,

The small amount of food that is left over is taken outdoors and placed somewhere where it can be returned to the earth or eaten. It is usually the "youngest" (in terms of ordination date, not chronological age) monk's duty. (At least that's the way it was done at the retreats I have been to. I'm positive there are variations)

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

(edit - Shingen beat me to it!)

[Eishuu]

I have to say that the word 'debt' brings up associations of obligation and guilt for me. It doesn't inspire me at all.

I really enjoy devotional practice and making offerings and nurturing generosity and kindness but the concept of a debt somehow doesn't connect with that for me. It comes from a place of love and connection, not from a sense of owing anything. Maybe it's the Western cultural background or something to do with my family background, I don't know.

In terms of who I owe a 'debt of kindness' to, I would say definitely my husband who has been taking care of me for years. But he's very clear that it is not a debt, and even tells me off when I say thank you. It doesn't feel very skillful to me to practice generosity from a place of indebtedness and obligation. Is there something I'm missing here? Is it just me or does anyone else find this language tricky? I wonder if these concepts are experienced differently in Eastern and Western cultural backgrounds...

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Shugen]

Hi Lucy,

I would say it is partially a translation issue. "Debt" is a very loaded word for many as you mentioned. The same issues occur with other words, "priest" for example. Perhaps it would be more helpful to look at it more as an "interconnectedness" instead of a "debt".

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

[Jundo]

I will just drop in a bit that, yes, perhaps "debt" is a very Japanese and Asian-Confucian concept vital to society here. I do not see it as a bad thing however and, as Shugen say, I feel it is just the interconnectedness of all supporting all. We are in the debt of all in this world that supports our life.

Starting with the concept of On 恩 which translated definition is [4] a favor; a benefit; an obligation; a debt of gratitude; kindness; goodness. On 恩 is an obligation when someone does something for or to another. [5] On is in all its uses a load, indebtedness, a burden, which one carries as best one may. An On 恩 may be small or large, good or bad. It may be a minor thing such as an acquaintance picking up the tab for lunch or a major insult requiring a vendetta. If one accepts or adopts this concept as a way of life, it requires you to keep a mental “file cabinet” of all your obligations. In Japanese society one that follows Giri as a way of life never worries about On debt owed to himself. Sometimes I give neighbors vegetables from my garden, apples from my tree or I will help them with a chore. I give these things without expectation of a return. I once saw a documentary on Japanese culture where a farmer kept a list of all of the unpaid On debt, which is inherited, he and his family had incurred. He periodically would review these On debts and decide which one he needed to tend to without worrying about what was owed to him or his family. Some of these On debt dated more than a hundred years. His sense of Giri was evident.

Regardless of how many On debt one has accrued, it is inherent to the one that follows Giri as a way of life that they get repaid. The one that the debt is owed to may have forgotten about what he did that caused the On debt. It does not matter. It still must be repaid. It is inherent in Western society to forget about a debt if it is perceived that the person the debt is owed to have forgotten.

The thing that insures that one does not forget is called Giri 義理. One either possess it or does not; however, if one has Giri 義理, one will never forget it. Call it honor, duty, or obligation, a man with Giri 義理 can be relied upon 100% of the time. Observing and practicing Giri 義理 demands that all obligations are repaid in full measure and with interest if required. Personal feelings in the matter are completely irrelevant. It is irrelevant whether one wants or likes what is provided to them. If one has received an On debt, Giri 義理 demands that it be repaid. There is an old Japanese saying that goes, [6] Death is lighter than a feather, but Giri 義理 is heavier than a mountain. It is impossible to have a little Giri 義理. One has to fully embrace it if it is a professed way of life.
http://kenukan.com/blog/2016/10/12/j...E%A9%E7%90%86/

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Eishuu]

Thanks Shugen and Jundo, that helps.

This has started to remind me of when I studied Anthropology and we looked at reciprocity. It was a long time ago but what I remember was that there was an implied 'debt' - ie an expectation of reciprocity, this reciprocity was always delayed, and the gift giving itself was part of creating and maintaining relationships. It was more like a dance of generosity - like at Christmas where you give presents to loved ones and they give them back. If someone gives you a present you give one back, partly because of a sense of debt, but if you reduced it to the concept of debt it would take away from what was going on...the giving is an expression of and a way of maintaining the relationship and connectedness. Maybe it's the same with interconnectedness in general.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Onkai]

We are in the debt of all in this world that supports our life.

This is beautiful. I can't quite say I possess Giri, but the attitude that I'm indebted to everything and everyone that supports life creates a shift in me.

In the book, I especially liked the verse on p 118:

The first portion is to end all evil;
The second is to cultivate every good;
the third is to free all beings.
May everyone realize the Buddha's Way.

I may incorporate that into the meal chant I use for the Ango.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday/LAH

[Jakuden]

Just wanted to note that I am enjoying everyone's comments and considering them carefully. Thank you all for the discussion. It is definitely swimming upstream to focus on eating with attention and gratitude, in this age of increasingly "fast" and processed food. It's one of the habits I have found most difficult to change, as there are many layers and obstacles to it.

Somewhere on here in an old thread, where someone mentioned the premise that we are all just biological one-way tubes with everything else that is attached (the neuromuscular sytem, musculoskeletal system, etc) just appendages to make the tube more efficient. Indeed our basic need is centered around ingesting something else in order to gain enough energy to eventually self-propagate, if you boil it down enough! In that we are no different than a Hydra (the simple biological organism, not the Marvel monster/organization). Viewed at this level, we are indeed just trading molecules with the rest of the universe in what could be seen as the most sacred of all rituals. Something gives itself to us, in turn we give either directly or indirectly back. There is no reason to take more than we need, because it has to all equal out eventually. As yucky as I feel when eating it, even a leftover Pop Tart fits in to that equation.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH