LIVING by VOW: The Meal Chants - PP 87 to 98 (thru Verse Upon Hearing Meal Signal)

[Jishin]

Hey Shugen,

I've found myself bogged down in this chapter because I do have a problem with desire and food. Ever since I quit drinking in January, I have been using food as a kind of stress reliever/source of pleasure. In fact, throughout my life, food has been a source of both desire and aversion. It's fair to say that food has been the focus of a lot of my emotional problems--not so much the cause as the means of escape (if this makes sense). This chapter has forced me to confront a significant effect of this problem: I refuse to acknowledge the sacred function of food as both sustenance for my life (and life in general) and means by which I am undeniably connected with other beings. That my life depends on the life (and death) of other beings is profoundly humbling, and to realize this insight demands that I transform utterly my relationship with food. Writing this, I feel a sense of shame that needs to be understood in terms of atonement instead of self-judgment. To see food as it is, as life, demands a reevaluation; I need to learn to treat food with honor, as Okumura implies, instead of treating it as an instrument of my own self-satisfaction.

Gassho,

Michael

Sat today

Hi,

All that is yummy yummy like sex, drugs and rock and rock = dopamine in the brain. Food is yummy yummy too! Find some other yummy yummies for your tummy and you will be alright!

My yummy 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Shugen]

Hello Michael,

It's great you are becoming more aware of your relationship with food. For me, if I could sum up all of practice in two words it would be "pay attention".

I would try and go light on the "shame" though. [emoji846]

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday


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[Michael Joseph]

Jishin and Shugen,

Thanks. That was the kind of support I was hoping for: encouragement with a side of smiles. Yummy!

Gassho,

Michael

Sat today

[Meitou]

Hello Michael,

It's great you are becoming more aware of your relationship with food. For me, if I could sum up all of practice in two words it would be "pay attention".

I would try and go light on the "shame" though. [emoji846]

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday


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It's interesting to see the direction this thread has taken, and comforting too for me personally. I suspect that part of my ongoing fascination with Oryoki is because I too love the yummy, too much for my own good and too much for my bathroom scales. I'm also married to an Italian chef - pity me! I think Shugen is right, a big part of the battle is recognising and being with our relationship to food, practising compassion for ourselves and then looking at ways to be more mindful and meditative when we eat. Even saying a few little words of gratitude either out loud or silently gives pause for thought, and helps bring attention to the moment.
Having said that, I do like how this chapter connects food and eating to the Dharma itself and through that, connects everything in our lives to Dharma - I always enjoy it when teachings are illustrated by the everyday stuff that we all do - it helps me toward living the Dharma rather than just pulling it out of my pocket a couple of times a week.

Gassho,
Frankie
Satwithyoualltoday/LAH.

[Tairin]

I've been reading this chapter little by little and letting it soak in. I just finished it tonight and Wow!! That is perhaps some of the clearest writings I've read on Buddhism and how it all ties together. At first glance i wondered why eating and meals received such a prominent place in comparison to other necessary bodily functions but it really becomes clear the more one considers it how truly interdependent we all are with everything. . I know I will be coming back to this chapter again in the future.

Related note - I've been reading about the modern food culture and how disconnected we have become from the origins of the food we eat. In many ways what we eat bears almost no resemblance to the original. I was appreciating this all the more earlier today when I was out in my garden harvesting vegetables for supper.

A few months ago we had a discussion here at Treeleaf about a show on Netflix about a Buddhist Chef (http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...hlight=Netflix) it was profound to watch such a humble approach to food

Gassho
Warren
Sat today/LAH

[AlanLa]

My father grew up in the Great Depression when food was sometimes scarce and later served in the air force where you ate what they gave you, period. Because of that history, he always cleaned his plate, and I don't ever recall him complaining about the food like us kids did. He was a rather devout Christian, but he ate food like Okumora describes how Buddhists should eat it, as sustenance without thoughts of good or bad because he was just glad to have it.

I try to be mindful of my food when eating it. This has been a focus of my practice in the past, and I need to get back to it now after reading this chapter. I'll start by sitting zazen today before I eat.

One strange note on this chapter I need to share. Its extensive description of how food is dharma and dharma is food is probably the best explanation of the eucharist I have ever been exposed to. I have't been a practicing Christian in a long time, partly because that religion's explanation of things like Holy Communion never made much sense to me. Transubstantiation, really? But I get it now, just way too late.

[Shokai]

HeyJigen/Al;
I think we must have gone to the same church.

gassho,Shokai

sat/LAH

[Seishin]

I've just managed to catch up with having bought the book a few weeks back, plus having family here on holiday. Much to reread at a slower pace.

I'd have to agree with Warren that there is so much here that's giving me a better understanding of Buddhism and especially Mahayana.

One thing that I'll still struggle to get my head around and covered in this section, is Relative and Absolute. The one hand five fingers helped and if I look at Indra's Net or the Whole Universe as Absolute and everything within that as Relative, I start to think I understand the concept but find it difficult to apply to daily life.

Is there any sources to get a low tech explanation or description of these concepts, that anyone could recommend.

Gassho

Toby

STMIZ

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[Tairin]

One thing that I'll still struggle to get my head around and covered in this section, is Relative and Absolute. The one hand five fingers helped and if I look at Indra's Net or the Whole Universe as Absolute and everything within that as Relative, I start to think I understand the concept but find it difficult to apply to daily life.

Hi Toby

I am curious what you mean by "apply to daily life". This doesn't strike me as a something to be applied. It just is. We simply need to be aware and observe. At least that's how i took it.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

[Shugen]

Hi Toby,

The interplay between Relative and Absolute is a key concept in our practice. As has been stated, it's relatively easy to understand intellectually but a bit more difficult to internalize. An argument could be made that every teaching touches on it. Let me look around and I'll see if I can come up with some reading recommendations for you.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

[Kotei]

Hi Toby,

personally, I see the Universe/Multiverse in its completeness as the only "Absolute", I can think of.

All, we can grasp is only a part of this Absolute Universe, only seen from one/more certain, 'self' deluded views.
All Relative. Part of the Absolute.

So in a way, it is our 'self', that stands between the Absolute, and us, recognising it.
We can just grasp some Relative things and thoughts (setting us in relation to it).
Sitting Zazen lets us 'feel' that there is this Absolute, that will never be totally understood by our deluded minds.

In daily life, I recognise this fact, which makes it easier to understand, that other people have other thoughts and beliefs.
This is fine. Nothing to accept or refuse. My Relative view is as wrong or right, as the Relative view from everybody else when seen in relation to the Absolute
Sitting Zazen to put all this Relative in relation to the Absolute seems to be the right thing to me.
It encourages me to accept others and to understand sitting as a natural thing to do.

Well, just some relative thoughts.
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Seishin]

Warren - I was responding to your question before the others posted and then the PC glitched ! Apply is probably the wrong word, more as Kotei stated, to recognize. I guess that's my issue at the moment but maybe I'm slowly grasping the concept.

Shugen - Absolutely (or maybe Relatively) yes I understand that it is central to this practice, so hence the post. I'd be grateful if you find anything on the subject. As I say I think I'm beginning to get the overall bigger picture.

Kotei -Thank you for that. Guess if I reverse engineer what you are saying and look at the individuality I recognize in all things and people and then accept that they are just many facets of one big Universal/Multiversal whole, then perhaps I get it after all.

Anyway sounds like I need to do more reading/studying on the matter.

STMIZ

[M.C. Easton]

The last five days I have been visiting my in-laws, and it has deepened my understanding of the co-existence of relative and absolute. Given all their history and my (relative!!) newness in my husband's family, I was astonished by their perceptions of one another and themselves--compared to how I saw and experienced each person. Realizing that neither their nor my perceptions were objectively true but instead reflected only a few facets of each person's objective existence was a big step for me. None of us is right, and yet we all are.

But I have to admit that I haven't yet been able to hold this in mind when it comes to food. I understand it intellectually, and I found it profoundly moving to consider that my life depends on sacrificing and consuming other life, without which I cannot exist--and that this perfectly illustrates the cohesion of "independence and connectedness" (p. 94) at the heart of Buddhism. "All food is dharma."

However, set a dinner plate in front of me, and all intentions to be aware of this fly right out of my head. I am completely lost in the experience of textures and flavors, temperatures and fragrances.

If I am eating and noticing what I'm eating, then I am completely absorbed in the noticing. I often halt a conversation, just so I can fully experience the food. So grand ideas of how food connects me to all reality? So far, I can't even remember to think about that!

I guess the chants are especially helpful for people like me who get a little too lost in their own senses.

Gassho,
Melanie
SatToday

[Shinshou]

A few years ago, I lost over 100 pounds in a year by only eating mindfully. I won't bore anyone with the details of my "tactics," as I called them. But I will mention that, as Meishin hinted, we often relate to our idea of food more intimately than the actual food. The idea of a doughnut is wonderful, but by the third bite the taste buds are so burned out on sugar, it's not really enjoyable anymore (not to mention the unenjoyable bodily feeling after a whole doughnut or two). But we continue to eat, hoping to bring to fruition that initial wonderful idea.

I believe when a person gets high the first time, it's the highest they'll ever be, and all their using after that is just trying to recapture that feeling. I think the same can be said about that first bite of food.

[Onkai]

Thank you for sharing. As I've been trying to lose weight, I'd actually be interested in what your "tactics" were, although the part about only the first bites of a doughnut really tasting good gives some direction.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday/LAH