LIVING by VOW: The Four Bodhisattva Vows (First Half) - PP 13 to 31

[Jundo]

I would suggest perhaps, since we are taking an extra week and these few pages were so rich with insights, that maybe take the time to read them again and discover more. I will be doing so again this week.

Gassho, J


SatTodayLAH

[Joyo]

I am having a tough time keeping up with the book club right now. I've got a few other courses on the go that I am doing. I do plan on reading this book, but I will be the tortoise at the back of the race. =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Risho]

Joyo - you are not alone I often read too many books at once and with just life stuff I just take my time. lol Then I get to a point where I'm like oh crap I Have to post something! hahaha Perhaps this this is the samsara of the Treeleaf book club? lol

Alan as you mentioned, I completely forgot about the mapping between the vows and the four noble truths as well!

I really like this chapter so far. This time when reading Katagiri roshi's poem on vow and Shohaku's explanation of it; it sort of just completely reflected my practice. It also hammered home Shohaku's point about the importance of Buddha teaching the Dharma.

So I have a big ego. I really do. It's a double-edged sword; it keeps me very driven and competitive and helps me to learn things quickly. It helps me push myself.

At the same time, if I don't catch the negative behaviors I can be an asshole, plain and simple. This practice has been extremely helpful with that. For example, now by not caring about humans, and only focusing on my mindful productivity practices (patent pending), I can be an asshole without caring. hahah just kidding

Seriously, practice has helped me apologize and atone for that. I can notice when I'm doing something harmful and by noticing it I take immediate corrective action. This practice is awesome. I feel good when I notice something like that, and that extends into social interactions and it helps people soften up as well. I notice this a lot at work.

When the Buddha wasn't sure if he wanted to teach what he discovered, I can understand that too. I sometimes take for granted what I know; although what I know isn't a breakthrough in humanity like Buddha discovered. lol I mean for example, I have particular ways I learn or organize or whatever to make things efficient and effective - ok I'm lazy so I want to get the most done at work with the least amount of effort

So when I show people things at work, from coding techniques to help with organization or whatever it is, I sometimes am not sure that I should really show it because I sort of figured this stuff out; I figure hey maybe they can figure this out too. So, in these cases, when I'm showing people things at work I usually preface with "However you need to do this..." or "This is how I do it, but whatever works for you..".

My point is that the Buddha spent so much time figuring this stuff out for himself, I wonder if he sort of took for granted how much he learned along the way? So when it came time to teach maybe it felt so ordinary to him that he didn't think that he really needed to show anyone anything? I mean from one perspective we truly all are enlightened.

In any case, I sort of wonder about that; maybe it's a teachers dilemma. What do you show? What do you let others discover for themselves so that they can really get to the heart of the teaching? (whatever that teaching is)

Thankfully he did teach it because this path is really special. Take sitting for example. It's pretty damned revolutionary. I mean it's a seemingly simple practice; deceptively so. To paraphrase Jundo in the first Sitting Basics sit a long - your mind is like a blender; turn it off man! And when you do, it's like opening a window and a fresh spring breeze comes in. And that extends to all of our lives. It's incredible. That allows us to face our lives, to notice what our mind is doing, to not be led around by it.

My favorite part, the part that most resonated with me in this section was Katagiri's poem on vow and Shohaku's explanation of it. Again, and now I'm circling back to my initial thought as I navigate this stream of consciousness , ok nice poem. But then when Shohaku explained it I was like Bam! There's my ego, thinking I know everything again. After I read that explanation, it was just beautiful. I couldn't see the depth of the poem past my ego, but after reading the explanation, I just thought ohhhhhhh wow, this really captures the beauty, elegance and heart of this practice.

And that is why we need Zen teachers. To bring us back again and again, to open us up beyond our limitations.

And that is also why we need Sangha to support us and why we need vow to never give up.

These vows, this sitting practice is difficult from one perspective because we come to this practice with certain expectations that we feel shitty a lot of the times so we are looking for a "quick hit" to fix us, to remove the anxiety about the future or whatever it is. Then our teacher says, "Hey, this is how you sit" and then you hang around and you learn some chants and vows and all this other stuff.

At first this is so much fun; the honeymoon period where you wonder why you didn't join a monastery when you were younger pre-responsibilities, but now you are locked into this life and so you'll just make do. Those thoughts happened after the first year to me. Of course I love my wife, but that was me trying to run again. Anyway, I've seen this over the years in others too. I think it's an important phase in practice.

Once the honeymoon is over, what do you have? Well either this was built on a house of cards or you start doing some soul searching and understand what these vows mean.

The thing is, and I know from experience, that you can read every Buddhist book your wife will let you buy - whoops I mean that you can get your hands on - but it all comes down to consistent practice, day in and day out. Also, for me at least, I had to understand what these vows meant to me. And I still have to clarify them all the time.

Which brings me back to the book. These vows are very frustrating from a logical perspective. But I think the way they are forces a practitioner to invest time in figuring them out for themselves. We have to bring this practice into our lives. We have to let it blossom through us. The only way to do that is that we have to figure out how we can fulfill the vows - of course, while knowing that we can never complete them. But that's also the point.

I don't live your life. No one knows you better than you. So you and I and everyone of us here has to figure out how we will make the vows alive in our lives. Answers to our questions in books or talks or whatever are not our answers; they can point us to the direction, but we must answer these questions.

There isn't a right and a wrong to this ( I mean assuming you aren't harming anyone). This isn't a competition like Hey I just fed every single homeless person in my town; oh wow your vows seem a little weak compared to mine. No it's literally, we each have to figure out how --- actually I think it would be better to state - we each need to learn how to let go to let our practice shine through us.

Anyway I'm done rambling; this is what happens when I don't post often. lol

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Meitou]

Phew, glad there's a bit more time to comment, this is such a rich book.
Thanks Onkai for bringing this up again

Like Frankie mentioned in the previous thread, I was surprised to find the sentence, 'Each bodhisattva makes specific vows unique to his or her personality and capabilities'. How does one find one's unique vows? Is this part of an enlightenment experience? Is this something I should be trying to recognize? Or is it something I consciously choose? Should it be decided in dokusan or of my own counsel?

I'm still wondering about this myself and wondering if Jundo could give some clarity to this?

I too was surprised with the Buddhists don't pray comment, but I was wondering if Okumura was thinking along strictly Christian lines as he was addressing nuns? I think that every definition of praying that I looked at on the net spoke firstly of God with the big G, then all the other stuff, gods, spirits etc, not really suprising from our Western centred/white Christian biased point of view, but rather interesting all the same. How do we define prayer? Come to that how do we define vow - it would be good perhaps to have a general discussion around that when we come to the end of the book.
In the meantime it's interesting to see how words have a power of their own and how our reactions to words can show how deep our conditioned thoughts can be rooted. I personally believe there is prayer in Buddhism, but perhaps it's just defined differently because that word doesn't quite fit in the sense that we are used to. For example, when practising the Metta chant, we use the words 'May I be free of suffering..' etc, which could be defined as prayer as we are expressing 'an earnest wish or hope' , a phrase that crops up in many dictionary definitions of the word. I also think terms like aspiration and pranidhana can encompass the idea of prayer.

And hands up here too, I don't think I ever knew about the link between the Bodhisattva vows and the Four Noble Truths, or if I did, like AlanLa, I had forgotten it - a great (re)discovery.
So much to think about! I'm really enjoying this book and reading everyone's brilliant comments
Gassho

Sat with you all today and LAH

[Jundo]

Like Frankie mentioned in the previous thread, I was surprised to find the sentence, 'Each bodhisattva makes specific vows unique to his or her personality and capabilities'. How does one find one's unique vows? Is this part of an enlightenment experience? Is this something I should be trying to recognize? Or is it something I consciously choose? Should it be decided in dokusan or of my own counsel?

Thanks Onkai for bringing this up again I'm still wondering about this myself and wondering if Jundo could give some clarity to this?

Maybe a bit of all. One should answer even this in one's own heart, in consultation with the counsel of others.

Perhaps the meaning is a bit like this: I have had to counsel sometimes a police officer or soldier on the "Vow to Save All Sentient Beings" or the Precept to Avoid the Taking of Life. Given their life circumstances, their encounter with these Vows might be the same, yet very different, from a mother taking care of children or a doctor, etc. The words and heart art the same, but our lives present many variations.

Perhaps we can return to this question again as we approach the end of the book.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Joyo]

I am slowly making my way to page 31. Lots to learn, very good book.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Kenshou]

I am currently on my 3rd reading of this section.
I agree with Kaishin about highlighting nearly every page; so much seems it is relevant.
It is most definitely a lot to digest.
I like the section about speaking to the Nuns, one of my favourite parts of this section is at the end of page 20/start of page 21 where it says:
"When we talk to people of other religions, we don't need to discuss the differences in theory. Of course, it is important to understand the differences, but we don't need to argue about which are true."
I think this is an important point to keep in mind for everyone of all faiths/religions/belief systems.

I also thought the section on Shakyamuni Buddha's vow was very interesting, particularly the descriptions of all 6 realms of samsara as present in this life, and not necessarily something that comes after death from this life.

A lot to like so far, these are just a couple of my favourites.

Gassho
Patrick

Sat today.

[tlsk]

Hello all,

This may be a silly question, but is it too late to join in on the discussion of this book? I haven't ordered it yet, but if I were to order it and catch up, would you all mind if I joined in?

Gassho,
Taylor
SatToday

[Jundo]

No, please join in!

I do close chapters after a few weeks, but you can still read and catch up, join in. No problem. At least some of it is available online too ...

http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Living%20By%20Vow%20Book%20Preview_0.pdf

Gassho, Jundo

SatTOdayLAH

[tlsk]

No, please join in!

I do close chapters after a few weeks, but you can still read and catch up, join in. No problem. At least some of it is available online too ...

http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Living%20By%20Vow%20Book%20Preview_0.pdf

Gassho, Jundo

SatTOdayLAH

Fantastic!

My copy should be here by Saturday.

Gassho,
Taylor
SatTodayLAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tlsk]

Whatever gets you through the night.

I am not much of a prayer person myself, and I agree with Okumura Roshi that Buddhism was not originally about that, and Zen Practice is not really about that.

But in China, Vietnam and some other places, Zen "self power" and faith in Amida Buddha "other power" has pretty much been all mixed together for a thousand years.

Also, I confess to being a "winker" with regard to prayer when pressed to the corner ... like when my son was sick in the hospital a few years ago, my daughter more recently (at such moments, one will reach for any help one can get, any hope) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffunerQ_AfA

(Suprisingly kinda Zenny lyrics!)

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Totally tangential, but I love this song. Elton John layin' down the backup vocals!

Gassho,
Taylor
SatTodayLAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Meitou]

Maybe a bit of all. One should answer even this in one's own heart, in consultation with the counsel of others.

Perhaps the meaning is a bit like this: I have had to counsel sometimes a police officer or soldier on the "Vow to Save All Sentient Beings" or the Precept to Avoid the Taking of Life. Given their life circumstances, their encounter with these Vows might be the same, yet very different, from a mother taking care of children or a doctor, etc. The words and heart art the same, but our lives present many variations.

Perhaps we can return to this question again as we approach the end of the book.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Thank you Jundo, this makes sense - I know for me personally regarding the precepts etc there are areas I need to work on more than others. I also like the idea of making a personal commitment beyond the vows themselves. I look forward to coming back to this as you suggest.

Gassho

Sat with you all today and LAH

[Michael Joseph]

Hello all,

This has been an excellent thread with my questions and perspectives that I have kept with me and returned to over the past couple of weeks. One of the things that I've wrestled with is the contradictions in the vows: to save all sentient beings, though beings numberless, etc. Until this morning, it made little sense to me, though I pretended that I had perfect understanding of it. (Funny how I learn after I think I know. .) Today, the contradictions made perfect sense. Without the acknowledgement that we can't save all beings, etc., we may become too discouraged to save the beings that we can, which, for us, is all beings. If I thought I had to know every work of British literature written between 1790 and today in order to teach my survey class this summer, then it would be impossible for me to do so, and that would be of no service to my students who know nothing about British literature. Knowing well what I do know and not pretending to know what I don't, I can "save" them. What before seemed like an impediment to "living by" the vows now seems liberating and empowering.

Gassho,

Michael
Sat today

[Kaishin]

Perhaps this is the most valuable quote I've taken from this section after reading through twice, as it distills the essence of Okamura's definition of "vow":

Vow is essential for us as Buddhist practitioners. It is a concrete and practical form of wisdom and compassion. This is the important point to understand when we think about vow.

-satToday

[M.C. Easton]

I am slowly making my way to page 31 as well and loving every sentence in this section, too. (Don't worry, Joyo! I think we've got several tortoises here at the tail end of the pack, and I'm right there with you!). Many of you have been commenting on the first part of the chapter especially (his lecture to the nuns).

My favorite lines were: "We cannot be proud of our practice, and we don't need to be too humble about our lack of practice or understanding. We are just as we are. Our practice is to take one more step to the infinite, the absolute, moment by moment" (p. 20). I found this comforting because, as I strive to practice "enough" with health limitations, I too easily start to beat up on myself for being less consistent than I want to be. But that is just another attachment to another delusion--that I can be other than I am.

I also think this concept of all our practice amounting to zero--along with many of your illuminating comments in the previous thread--helped me better understand that parable about lying down in the mud as a bodhisattva vow. Perhaps prostrating ourselves in the mud manifests our awareness of where we actually are in relation to what we've vowed to undertake. We're not wallowing down there in the mud. We're not saying, "Abuse me because I am worthless." We're saying, "This is where I am in this moment, and though my worth is equal to those who will walk over me--because we are all one, not two--this is what I can do right here and now to save all beings. It is a tiny thing. It is zero, but I am here, and I can do it." So we do it. Mud or not.

Melanie
SatToday/LAH