LIVING by VOW: The Four Bodhisattva Vows (First Half) - PP 13 to 31

[Jundo]

Hi All Vowers,

We will go up through the section "D.T. Suzuki's Vow" on p. 31.

This chapter has been a little dense and packed with interesting information. Maybe if folks want, we can slow down for an extra week, and spend some more time here. Let's see,

I was surprised that Okumura Roshi said that "Buddhists don't pray" (although he seems to admit that is not so in the footnote.) Most typical Buddhist people in Japan and the rest of Asia do pray to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas for help, health and the like, just like Western people might pray to God, angels and saints. I think that Okumura Roshi means that, in his view, the real message of Buddhism is not that.

Our translation of the Four Vows is a little different, but recently we spoke about that. I explained why we use, in the last line, "unattainable" instead of "unsurpassable." Okumura Roshi seems to say that the actual meaning is something like an enlightenment so "unsurpassable" that we can't get there. I would simply add that, while we keep moving forward even though we cannot "get there", from another wondrous way of seeing, we are ALREADY there and thus never any place to get at all.

More here:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15291-Four-Vows-history-and-translations&p=198785&viewfull=1#post198785

Zen and the Mahayana often see these two ways at once.

Likewise, his translation uses "desires", but ours (and the majority of translations in English I believe) use something like "delusions" inexhaustable. All these delusions, in one way or another, arise form our experience of separate self with its selfish wants, self-centered judgements and the like.

What do you feel about his way of expressing what "Vow" is, or any other the other descriptions from Katagiri Roshi or D.T. Suzuki?

There is a lot more packed into these pages, so please pick out or ask about anything, and we can all talk about it.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Meian]

"Most typical Buddhist people in Japan and the rest of Asia do pray to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas for help, health and the like, just like Western people might pray to God, angels and saints." I find this comforting. I didn't know if this was a "thing" or not (asking Buddhas and Bodhisattvas for help, etc), but I adopted this practice on my own recently, mostly in an act of desperation one night. To my surprise, it did not seem to be a useless exercise and is something I've been experimenting with. I don't see it the same way as Catholic prayer, but I do sense an inexplicable and gentle connection that it feels OK to me to do this. A bit strange for me also, but no more strange than anything else I've tried recently.

Thank you for sharing this, Jundo - something I wondered about, but did not know how to ask about it.

Gassho
Kim
St/LAH

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

"Most typical Buddhist people in Japan and the rest of Asia do pray to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas for help, health and the like, just like Western people might pray to God, angels and saints." I find this comforting. I didn't know if this was a "thing" or not (asking Buddhas and Bodhisattvas for help, etc), but I adopted this practice on my own recently, mostly in an act of desperation one night. To my surprise, it did not seem to be a useless exercise and is something I've been experimenting with. I don't see it the same way as Catholic prayer, but I do sense an inexplicable and gentle connection that it feels OK to me to do this. A bit strange for me also, but no more strange than anything else I've tried recently.

Thank you for sharing this, Jundo - something I wondered about, but did not know how to ask about it.

Gassho
Kim
St/LAH

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

Whatever gets you through the night.

I am not much of a prayer person myself, and I agree with Okumura Roshi that Buddhism was not originally about that, and Zen Practice is not really about that.

But in China, Vietnam and some other places, Zen "self power" and faith in Amida Buddha "other power" has pretty much been all mixed together for a thousand years.

Also, I confess to being a "winker" with regard to prayer when pressed to the corner ... like when my son was sick in the hospital a few years ago, my daughter more recently (at such moments, one will reach for any help one can get, any hope) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffunerQ_AfA

(Suprisingly kinda Zenny lyrics!)

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Hoko]

I am surprised at how much I'm enjoying this book!

The concept of vow as universal self appeals to me because not only is it something to aspire to "achieve" but also something that is already achieved. The concrete practice of aligning the ego driven self with Reality moment by moment is practice-enligntenment itself. In fact this is almost verbatim how Uchiyama Roshi explained how he had spent the majority of his life in the first Chapter of Opening the Hand of Thought. Pairing it inextricably with repentance completes the circle to provide the endless motivation of the bodhisattva.

This was the first time I have encountered the four fundamental bonnō of Yogacara. I was not familiar with them but I found it intriguing. Do you have anything more to add on this, Jundo?

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday
LAH

[Kaishin]

I vote for going slowly -- lots to digest, and I like to read through everything twice, the second time with others' perspectives in mind.

-satToday

[Onkai]

I had a little bit of trouble with the concept of "vow". I imagined something I would chafe against. Vow in this book is something completely different, a deep aspiration. I'm on board with that.

Like Frankie mentioned in the previous thread, I was surprised to find the sentence, 'Each bodhisattva makes specific vows unique to his or her personality and capabilities'. How does one find one's unique vows? Is this part of an enlightenment experience? Is this something I should be trying to recognize? Or is it something I consciously choose? Should it be decided in dokusan or of my own counsel?

I haven't read much of D.T. Suzuki's writings. I had the impression that they were very scholarly. From what Okumura wrote about him, I'm more interested in his work. Does he come from a Rinzai perspective?

I hope I'm not asking too many questions.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday.

[Jakuden]

I second Kaishin's vote to go slowly and am very interested to hear answers to Onkai's questions!

So far I just have an observation, that I found Okumura's explanation of the six realms the best I have heard so far. They are actually useful to me now instead of just an old Buddhist fairy-tale that is difficult to swallow.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

I haven't read much of D.T. Suzuki's writings. I had the impression that they were very scholarly. From what Okumura wrote about him, I'm more interested in his work. Does he come from a Rinzai perspective?

Hi Onkai,

Yes, Suzuki Daisetsu (not to be confused with "Zen Mind Beginners Mind" Suzuki Shunryu) came from a Rinzai perspective. But actually, he is a bit out of favor these days, and rather criticized for presenting a very romantic, ideological presentation of Zen Practice. That criticism is complicated, but boils down to his presenting a very intellectual, idealized, Koan and "reaching Satori" presentation of Zazen that almost completely forgot to mention Zazen or Soto Zen. You can read more (than you ever wanted to) on this criticism here:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10099-D-T-Suzuki&p=84830&viewfull=1#post84830

I think, based on requests, that we may take an extra week with the rather dense first section.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

PS - Much gratitude to all the folks living the LAH Vow!

[Kokuu]

I am really enjoying this already. Although we talked about the relationship of the Four Vows to the Four Noble Truths here recently, it was good to be reminded of that and it was in my mind when I chanted them along with the zazenkai today.

D T Suzuki is someone whose writings I do like. I read his Essays on Zen Buddhism during Ango and found them inspiring. However, Jundo's criticisms ring true and his Zen and Japanese Culture book definitely falls more on the side of romanticism than cultural history.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/LAH-

[Michael Joseph]

Hello everyone,

This is indeed a rich chapter so far. I have two observations and a question.

First, I like how Okumura writes in a circular style. For example, he continually returns to "vow" not to stabilize or reinforce a meaning, but to expand the possibilities of meaning contained in the concept of "vow." In another instance, he initial makes an apparent distinction between "vow" and "prayer" (14), and then in his explication of Katagiri Roshi's poem, he all but erases the distinction, presenting them as complimentaries of aspiration.

Second, I was struck by something he said on page 24 that returned me to a statement from the introduction that Jundo highlighted: "This awareness of incompleteness is repentance" (7). I initially had some difficulty with exactly what that means, and while I don't claim (or desire) to have arrived at a definitive conclusion, I now see repentance as a special type of awareness, one that has an active component. The meaning of "repentance" involves not just regret over past shortcomings, but a commitment to change one's life in order to overcome them. On page 24, in discussing his own initial difficulty in accepting Buddha's, Okumura writes that the Buddha's teaching regarding the causes and extinguishment of suffering is easy to understand intellectually or to see in others, "but it's difficult to see when we ourselves suffer and are ignorant. It's also hard to accept that we are deluded....If we agree with the Buddha's teaching, we need to practice it and make an effort to transform our lives." These statements help me to better understand how "awareness of incompleteness is repentance," a recognition-and-remedy that seems to be at the heart of the Bodhisattva Vows.

Finally, I'm intrigued by Okumura's statement, "We vow toward the Buddha, toward something absolute and infinite" (29). This seems like a very important description of what it means to vow in Buddhism--especially in relation to the Bodhisattva Vows, but I don't understand what vowing toward something might mean. Does anyone have some ideas?

Gassho,

Michael

Sat today/LAH

[Zenmei]

Finally, I'm intrigued by Okumura's statement, "We vow toward the Buddha, toward something absolute and infinite" (29). This seems like a very important description of what it means to vow in Buddhism--especially in relation to the Bodhisattva Vows, but I don't understand what vowing toward something might mean. Does anyone have some ideas?

Gassho,

Michael

Sat today/LAH

To me it's aspirational. These vows are not promises that can't be broken, they're paths that we choose to travel knowing full well we'll never reach the destination. We vow towards the infinite, but we can never reach it.
I don't expect to transform all my delusions, but I can keep walking towards where that finger is pointing.

Gassho, Zenmei
#sat/lah

[Myogan]

My first exposure to the word "vow" circa age 6

Let peace begin with me, let this be the moment now,
With every step I take, let this be my solemn vow,
To take each moment and live each moment, in peace eternally

So to that young child a vow was something ever going, eternal, impossible to finish. And now the cycle turns and the lesson repeats.

More recently my first reading of the four vows was in this translation (Kwan Um School)

Sentient beings are numberless; we vow to save them all.
Delusions are endless; we vow to cut through them all.
The teachings are infinite; we vow to learn them all.
The Buddha way is inconceivable; we vow to attain it.

Each translation I have seen so far has it's own unique spin. I wonder where and how it was decided to take the original, "I vow to enable people . . ." and add the challenge of infinity, impossibility, etc. Especially if the vow naturally insinuates the eternal nature anyway. Somehow the Korean version sounds more like bragging.

I do tend to prefer the concepts of teaching in the third vow. The Platform sutra cited by Jundo (http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post198785) has it "The teachings of our own minds " . But with wisdom we find that the teachings are not just what is written, but in every action of nature, every molecule of our being.

Without wisdom you get this:

https://youtu.be/W8qcccZy03s

[Shoka]

I really enjoyed this portion of the book. I truly love the definitions that are laid out for for a vow is. I struggled for a long time in other religions because of how promises and rules were set up. I didn't like the idea of doing something good so you would get into heaven.

This quote is one of my favorites:

In face, part of the definition of a bodhisattva is a person who lives by a vow instead of by karma. Karma means habit, preferences, or a ready-made system of values.... In contrast, a bodhisattva lives by vow. Vow is like a magnet or compass that shows us the direction toward the Buddha.

I really like the idea that a vow shows us the way, but we are responsible for getting ourselves there. This is one of the things that has always resonated for me with Buddhism. It doesn't necessarily tell me exactly what to do, but gives general guide lines. It reminds me of a trail guide, where there are descriptions of heading north and passing the stream, then coming to a clearing, etc. But you still have to walk the path, and usually you stop at points hoping you are still on the right path. Sometimes you might even sit down and cry because you feel lost (true story) but eventually you have to pick yourself back up, put one foot in front of the other and make a choice of which direction to go.

Of course, it won't be a zen book if it didn't prop you up and make you ready to go out and conquer the world and then say something so simple that puts you back in the humble frame of mind:

Even if you cannot practice as hard, sit as long, study as much, or understand as deeply as others, we don't need to feel guilty or inferior. Compared to the eternal, the absolute, or the infinite, we are all equal to zero.

This section was heartwarming and saddening at the same time. It is such a contrast to say, don't worry if you can't do too much, you aren't inferior. But as he says there is something very meaningful in this comparison. We have to remember that we are just a tiny tiny part of the absolute.

I'm still digesting this section, but those are the two things that really struck me. I also vote for going slowly.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[AlanLa]

If I previously learned that the Bodhisattva vows corresponded to the Four Noble Truths, then I had forgotten it, so this was a nice surprise that I can't quite get out of my head now. I have said this before on the forum, but it bears repeating here, I find new meanings in these four vows just about every time I say/commit to them. Sometimes their meaning is global, and other times their meaning is very specific, but each time I am always asking myself the same basic question: How can I fulfill this vow? And the beauty in it for me is that I cannot. It is the very impossibility of an attainment outcome that sets me free to live the process. Finding personal applications of this general vow gives it great depth and meaning. For me, living by this vow (and others) is a never ending act of discovery. Figuring out how all the vows work in my life on a day to day basis is what the Buddhist Path is all about. Maybe this is an answer to Onkai's question:

Each bodhisattva makes specific vows unique to his or her personality and capabilities'. How does one find one's unique vows?

Posting day = sitting day

[Kaishin]

If I previously learned that the Bodhisattva vows corresponded to the Four Noble Truths, then I had forgotten it, so this was a nice surprise that I can't quite get out of my head now.

Me too! Isn't that funny. And we will probably forget again soon Seems like I forget and then re-learn almost everything in this practice... continuous practice indeed.

Still slowly digesting this section -- feel like I'm highlighting basically every page!

This passage stood out to me, given that almost everyone here seems rather clever

[Our practice] is certainly a stupid way of life, not a clever one. A clever person cannot be a bodhisattva.

Okumura, Shohaku. Living by Vow: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts (Kindle Location 538). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

The second quote Shoka mentions above was also reassuring, as I have a tendency to feel that way sometimes.

One last passage, where Okumura quotes Shakyamuni:

He thought, “The content of my enlightenment, the concept of interdependent origination, is extremely difficult to comprehend. Those who enjoy clinging take pleasure in attachment and are fond of their ties of dependence, and they will never be able to understand it.”

Okumura, Shohaku. Living by Vow: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts (Kindle Locations 613-615). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

How true -- it's not just that people are deluded and can't realize it... it's that even if they realize it, they are so addicted to this dependency, revel in it almost, that they have such a hard time opening themselves beyond it (me too of course).