BOOK OF EQUANIMITY- case 20

[Tb]

Hi.



Nothing to add.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Shogen]

Taigu asked, Please consider these questions:

When you get up, what happens then?

Choices to be made.

Does not knowing has a colour or shape?

No

Does it speak?

No

How big are the legs?

don't know

How far its arms can reach out?

don't know

How to know not knowing?

Looking, touching, tasting, smelling, hearing for the first time.

How can it be known?

Shikantaza

Where are you in this knowing?

Practicing

Still there?

Yes


gassho shogen

[Nenka]

What I think I know about anything changes with every piece of the puzzle I'm given. It's not wrong to investigate, ponder, or even philosophize. But whether the subject fades away or the discussion goes on forever, did I ever really know the whole great truth of it? To believe so would be the mistake.

Gassho

Jen

I wonder if it's the difference between having "awareness" versus "analysis" in our sitting?
I especially enjoy the final commentary questions:

Does not knowing has a colour or shape?
Does it speak?
How big are the legs?
How far its arms can reach out?
How to know not knowing?
How can it be known?
Where are you in this knowing?
Still there?

Gassho in not knowing, -Taigu

It feels like a dharma poem in and of itself. I printed it out to reread after today's sitting. On a side note, is there a section on the forum for posting dharma poems that we write? I define a dharma poem as an expression of our understanding (I won't use the word enlightenment b/c that sure doesn't apply to me, haha...). I have found in the past that it feels beneficial at times to try to write something after having a longer sitting session, trying to remember not to be pretentious but instead try to express honestly both my understanding and blind spots. Do you think that is a good practice or does it still lead to too much thinking and analysis? I apologize if that's been listed somewhere else and I missed it.

Thanks, -Chris

[galen]

Dear All,

I would ask our members to hold, as much as possible, all Forum discussion and chit-chat during our Rohatsu Retreat the next two days, except as related to the Retreat.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10379-TREELEAF-SANGHA-online-2-DAY-ANGO-JUKAI-ROHATSU-RETREAT-2012

Now is a day for sitting, not talking.

Thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

Jundo... it seems this link does not open.


Gassho

NOTE FROM JUNDO: THANK YOU, LINK FIXED

[Jundo]

Dear All,

I would ask our members to hold, as much as possible, all Forum discussion and chit-chat during our Rohatsu Retreat the next two days, except as related to the Retreat.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10379-TREELEAF-SANGHA-online-2-DAY-ANGO-JUKAI-ROHATSU-RETREAT-2012

Now is a day for sitting, not talking.

Thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Dear All,

I would ask our members to hold, as much as possible, all Forum discussion and chit-chat during our Rohatsu Retreat the next two days, except as related to the Retreat.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...U-RETREAT-2012

Now is a day for sitting, not talking.

Thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

[RichardH]

However, there are several clear differences between Zen (Buddhism) and Taoism. E.g. Taoism has no precepts, because according to Taoism deep inside people know by themselves what is right or wrong.
Taoism also lacks a clear methodology like the 8th fold Path, etc.

These are two really good points... (sorry to extend the Taoist thing on this thread) . The Tao Te Ching always seemed like an expression of realization with no methodology. It is so beautiful and simple.

The (overly simplified) story goes that there was vanilla Buddhism in India.. then Padmasambhava took it to Tibet where it fused with Shamanism, and Bodhidharma took it to China where it fused methodology and the Boddhisattva commitment with Taoist immediacy.
I think it is safe to say in Buddhism it is also true that people know by themselves what is right or wrong. The difference being it just needs to be uncovered.

Gassho , kojip

[Amelia]

Thank you, Timo.

[Daitetsu]

Hi Amelia,

Is there a difference between Tao and Dharma?

In order to answer the question I would have to define both terms and compare them. And thus would be on the wrong track.

I don't want to leave it like that though...
The following is my very personal opinion:
For me Dharma, Tao, etc. speak more or less about the same thing. The same thing Hinduism talks about (and other religions) or the Sufis or the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart.
Taoism, Zen, etc. are different fingers pointing to the moon.
Different Buddhists will define Dharma differently and different Taoists will define the Tao differently.

Before I came to Zen I was very much into Taoism, and when I became acquainted with Zen, I was totally surprised by the parallels.
Actually, Taoism had a considerable influence on Buddhism when it came to China, and later Zen had a huge influence on Taoism.
Alas, the philosophical Taoism developed into a superstitious religion. However, there is a so-called "New Taoism" nowadays (especially in the West) that goes "back to the roots". They even use Zen anecdotes/stories.
However, there are several clear differences between Zen (Buddhism) and Taoism. E.g. Taoism has no precepts, because according to Taoism deep inside people know by themselves what is right or wrong.
Taoism also lacks a clear methodology like the 8th fold Path, etc.

Actually, I don't want to make a Taoist thread out of this (sorry Taigu!), so if someone has questions/answers/feedback about this, you can send me a PM if you want.

As a final quote - this time from Tao Te Ching (Translation by Stephen Mitchell)

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

Gassho,

Timo

[Amelia]

Is there a difference between Tao and Dharma?

[Daitetsu]

I stumbled upon the following passage from "The Complete Chuang Tzu" (Translation by James Legge).
Actually, this is a Taoist text (I hope it is OK to post it), so please don't feel disturbed by the term "Tao" - I think it's the meaning that counts...

[…]
We look for it, and there is no form; we hearken for it, and there is no sound. When men try to discuss it, we call them dark indeed. When they discuss the Tao, they misrepresent it.'
Hereupon Grand Purity asked Infinitude, saying,
'Do you know the Tao?'
'I do not know it,' was the reply. He then asked Do-nothing, who replied, 'I know it.'
'Is your knowledge of it determined by various points?'
'It is.'
'What are they?'
Do-nothing said,
'I know that the Tao may be considered noble, and may be considered mean, that it may be bound and compressed, and that it may be dispersed and diffused. These are the marks by which I know it.'
Grand Purity took the words of those two, and asked No-beginning, saying,
'Such were their replies; which was right? and which was wrong? Infinitude's saying that he did not know it? or Do-nothing's saying that he knew it?'
No-beginning said,
'The "I do not know it" was profound, and the "I know it" was shallow. The former had reference to its internal nature; the latter to its external conditions.
Grand Purity looked up and sighed, saying,
'Is "not to know it" then to know it? And is "to know it" not to know it? But who knows that he who does not know it (really) knows it?'
No-beginning replied,
'The Tao cannot be heard; what can be heard is not It.
The Tao cannot be seen; what can be seen is not It. The Tao cannot be expressed in words; what can be expressed in words is not It. Do we know the Formless which gives form to form? In the same way the Tao does not admit of being named.'

Gassho,

Timo

[Ed]

who knows here?
above abyss, leaps back
no trace


_/\_

[Jishin]

Taigu,

I was in the US Navy many moons ago.

Gasho,

JC

[Taigu]

I like Al's good old voice, knowing is the separation.

gassho

T.