The Platform Sutra: Sections 5 + 6 and commentary, p91-98 (96-104 on Kindle)

[Kokuu]

Dear all

This week we will cover parts 5 and 6 (pages 91-98 in the physical book and 96-104 on Kindle). In this part, the monks decide to leave the writing of gathas to their senior brother, Shen-hsiu. We also hear that a wall outside of the patriarch’s hall is going to be painted with scenes from the Lankavatara Sutra and stories of the five patriarchs. Red Pine notes here that his translation of the sutra remains in a drawer but we are fortunate that it was eventually refined and published in 2012 (six years after this translation went to print).

We then hear Shen-hsiu’s inner thoughts of whether to present a poem or not, with his fears of being judged as not worthy to receive the dharma contrasted by his wish to know whether he meets the mark or not, and a feeling of responsibility as the senior monk.

Questions for reflection

1. Why might the monks be so reluctant to submit a poem (something which many of you did here)? How do you feel about presenting your understand to a teacher? Is there a feeling of worrying about being ‘found out’ and do you relate to Shen-hsiu’s inner thoughts in part 6? I will note that after I started working with my koan teacher he said that it seemed I knew the answer to one koan but was fearful of presenting it and asked why. I said that I was afraid of him saying it was wrong and he replied that I would have to get used to that!
2. In Shen-hsiu’s poem and (as we shall see) Huineng’s, a mirror is used to symbolise our mind. Does that resonate with you? Does thinking of the mind as a mirror help resonate with what you experience in Zazen?

Wishing you all a great week!

Gassho
Kokuu
(sattoday/lah)

[Chikyou]

1) It seems strange to me that all of the monks just…decided not to do their assigned work. It shows a lack of respect for their teacher to just not even try. Sometimes I do get nervous about sharing my own understanding; however as I’ve gotten to know everyone here I am feeling less and less like I will be judged poorly (even if I perform poorly).

2) I’ve heard the mirror metaphor often but it hasn’t resonated with me as much as some of the other metaphors for describing the same thing. The clear blue sky is one such that resonates with me, and also Jundo’s metaphor of the incense smoke drifting through the room. As for keeping my mind-mirror free of dust, well, that is a noble aspiration, however my mind can be a very dusty place and its easier said then done!

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Guest]

1. BIG EGOS all of them!

2. "I'm starting with the man in the mirror. I've been asking him to change his ways. And no message could have been any clearer. If you wanna make the world a better place Take a look at yourself, and then make a change..."

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Hosui]

1. I guess the monks were protecting (falsely) their separate identities from external challenge. So I'm with Chikyou and Hosai - what a disappointing bunch of monks! The monk's behaviour is almost a parody of what zen training is about, which for me is to be continually 'found out', corrected, and re-directed. This is why I'm spending time here, learning the Sutra and learning from you all about it.

Given this, if the Platform Sutra is a dramatisation of what happened - devised for the purposes of instructing the likes of us, say - then this slapstick characterisation, claiming that all the monks outsourced their Gathas, is also disappointing and probably untrue. Having been a member of a community of monks, I can say with confidence that everyone would have had a different response. So, for me, part of what's being imparted in the Sutra, and possibly this very corridor of the Forum, is how all sutras are provisional, only pointing at the Ultimate Truth using conventional language - even though I respect every ounce of the effort immensely!

2. I've sat for the last few days with the mirror simile from this Sutra. It's helped me see the futility of a separate self and the glories of being connected to everything.

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[Hokuu]

Why might the monks be so reluctant to submit a poem (something which many of you did here)? How do you feel about presenting your understand to a teacher? Is there a feeling of worrying about being ‘found out’ and do you relate to Shen-hsiu’s inner thoughts in part 6? I will note that after I started working with my koan teacher he said that it seemed I knew the answer to one koan but was fearful of presenting it and asked why. I said that I was afraid of him saying it was wrong and he replied that I would have to get used to that!

Well, I'd like to know what was expected of monks at that time in ancient China. Maybe it wasn't expected they would respond at all, maybe only senior monks were expected to give a response regardless of the public announcement of the task.

I believe I'm ok with presenting my understanding to a teacher as that's why there is a teacher, right? At the same time, if I were in position of potentially becoming an abbott of a huge monastery with considerable income, then yes, I'd likely be terrified but not because my of understanding of Dharma

In Shen-hsiu’s poem and (as we shall see) Huineng’s, a mirror is used to symbolise our mind. Does that resonate with you? Does thinking of the mind as a mirror help resonate with what you experience in Zazen?

The symbol doesn’t really resonate with me.

I don’t know much about the history of the mirror as a symbol of the mind, but it’s fascinating how the concept of mind evolved—from something lacking self and being impermanent to something like a mirror, which, while reflecting only what’s before it, still exists as an object.

I personally find the symbolism of a current more fitting since it doesn’t exist on its own. That said, it may not be a perfect analogy either, as it implies the existence of water. On another hand again, one could argue that water itself arises from conditions, making a current a valid symbol after all.

Gassho
satlah
Hokuu

[Taigen]

1. Maybe Kokuu and Jundo are just nicer than Hung-jen when it comes to giving feedback? It's tempting to *tsk tsk* the monks in this story (even Red Pine does it) but, I mean, I know I do things like this, inside and outside the Zendo. I also find myself thinking about how converts are almost always more zealous than those born to a tradition. We all chose to be here, I'm not sure the same can be said for the monks.

2. A mirror is a fine symbol; we are a reflection of our circumstances and conditioning. A metaphor is just a metaphor though.

Gassho,
Taigen
Satlah

[Meishin]

1. Yes the "imposter syndrome" is always lurking. I had the same experience as you, Kokuu, in which a koan teacher had to drag the words out of my mouth. My feeling then was that I hardly thought I might actually have the "answer." It seemed blasphemous. But after it was finally said, I thought how simple it had been from the beginning. I doubt that any of us, layperson or priest, is so ego-less that we don't give at least passing thought to the possibility that we might be "wrong."

2. As Red Pine points out, the initial poem seems trite, much like what one reads in pop psych or pop spirituality. Moreover it sets the stage for endless self-analysis and self-castigation. However the mirror seems a useful metaphor if the mind merely reflects without judgment. That happens in Shikantaza a nanosecond before the running commentary continues.

Gassho
Meishin
stlah

[Hokai]

1. I’m always on the wrong path, continually needing correction. That’s fine by me!

2. I’d quite like to be a mirror, But see 1.

Gassho
Hōkai
satlah

[Henny]

Questions:
1. I think the problem is, that the abbot does not make writing a gatha mandatory for everyone, so that he gets a good impression of how far all the monks have progressed on the path. And yes, it is quite challenging to write one. But in general, it's also scary to show your own intimate thoughts and especially when assessed by a teacher. I think most monks take their calling to easy. They got lazy. For Shen-hsiu it was extra challenging because he already had a high position and if he fails, it will worsen his position in the eyes of the monks.


2. Yes, sometimes I briefly feel like an empty mirror. The symbol of a mirror does also also ties in with what I learned in Chi Gong, where it is said that you should imagine a rippleless, cool mountain lake in the center of your head. That works really great for me.

Gassho
Henny
satlah

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

I accidently submitted this post in a different thread. I usually write them in notepad first because I tend to write a bit then walk away. So if it seems familiar you may have read this elsewhere

1. Why might the monks be so reluctant to submit a poem (something which many of you did here)? How do you feel about presenting your understand to a teacher? Is there a feeling of worrying about being ‘found out’ and do you relate to Shen-hsiu’s inner thoughts in part 6?

The way it's written it did strike me as kind of flippant. Like they felt it wasn't important. Maybe it wasn't taken as a directive but rather an invitation. I do understand being apprehensive about being perceived negatively. As long as you don't know how your being appraised it's not really a thing. But once it's done we've been kind of fixed in the mind of another. Which impacts how we see ourselves. There is a kind firmness to it. At least for me.

2. In Shen-hsiu’s poem and (as we shall see) Huineng’s, a mirror is used to symbolise our mind. Does that resonate with you? Does thinking of the mind as a mirror help resonate with what you experience in Zazen?

I think the mirror image works in the sense that things come and go. Something in front of the mirror appears and as it passes by the mirror it disappears from the mirror. So I think it works as a metaphor for the arising and passing away of thoughts and feelings. This isn't how I would describe my experience. My experience (at least after I've been sitting for around 15 minutes or so)is more like spaciousness. It's sort of like instead of thinking and feeling (emotions and sensation), thoughts and feelings occur in the spaciousness. I'm not sure how clear that is but it's something like that.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Myo-jin]

Dear all

Questions for reflection

1. Why might the monks be so reluctant to submit a poem (something which many of you did here)? How do you feel about presenting your understand to a teacher? Is there a feeling of worrying about being ‘found out’ and do you relate to Shen-hsiu’s inner thoughts in part 6? I will note that after I started working with my koan teacher he said that it seemed I knew the answer to one koan but was fearful of presenting it and asked why. I said that I was afraid of him saying it was wrong and he replied that I would have to get used to that!
2. In Shen-hsiu’s poem and (as we shall see) Huineng’s, a mirror is used to symbolise our mind. Does that resonate with you? Does thinking of the mind as a mirror help resonate with what you experience in Zazen?

Wishing you all a great week!

1) I can relate to the monks in several areas of life. When I first went to graduate school I hated giving talks on my research in front of professors and my peers, because then they'd realise how awful I was, I'd be found out, classical imposter syndrome. The same goes for my hesitancy to publish my work, but since that's how I make a living I have no choice, so the only option is to choose trusted advisors and co-authors to collaborate, realising that they've all been through the same mill.

In a 'spiritual' sense, when I started out in a particular esoteric order, one of the key requirements was the submission of a diary of my practice to a supervisor. I didn't like it much as it strips us bare, but it's the only way to do improve.

Likewise, in Aikido, a friend of mine once likened it to being an 'open wound' to one another on the tatami. Our partners and teachers see our deficiencies, and like a mirror, recognise them because they've been through it themselves, and compassionately point them out and help us through them. But we can only learn insofar as we are willing to tear the bandage off our sense of self-importance.

2) Related to question 1 I guess. I suppose he might be referring to the way in which our minds reflect our environment. But to be honest, regarding the mind I don't have anything to point to, mirror, open sky, water than reflects the moon and a flying bird, they all sound nice, but for me it's really just a feeling. Sometimes the mind is focussed, sometimes it's scattered, and as for the 'mind' beyond these passing things, I really can't say anything without creating meaningless ripples.

Sattlah
Gassho
M

[Choujou]

Questions for reflection

1. Why might the monks be so reluctant to submit a poem (something which many of you did here)? How do you feel about presenting your understand to a teacher? Is there a feeling of worrying about being ‘found out’ and do you relate to Shen-hsiu’s inner thoughts in part 6? I will note that after I started working with my koan teacher he said that it seemed I knew the answer to one koan but was fearful of presenting it and asked why. I said that I was afraid of him saying it was wrong and he replied that I would have to get used to that!
2. In Shen-hsiu’s poem and (as we shall see) Huineng’s, a mirror is used to symbolise our mind. Does that resonate with you? Does thinking of the mind as a mirror help resonate with what you experience in Zazen?

1. While I agree with a lot of what has been said of the monks refusing to submit a poem (such as fear of ridicule, or “imposter syndrome”) if this story is not exaggerated, then I would think that there could be a little fear involved in regard to well being. The monastery was home and safety, food and warmth. Times were different back then… and perhaps fear of losing that sense of “home” and safety from the harsh world outside the monastery walls played a role as well. “What if the master doesn’t like my poem and gets angry with me? What if he thinks I’m a horrible student, a waste of time who will never understand the teachings… What if he kicks me out?!”

2. Yes, perfectly reflecting all without discrimination or judgement. A capping verse I recently wrote for the 108 Dharma gates of illumination thread:

A Mirror Reflects all
without distinction
even the shattering hammer

Gassho,
Choujou

sat/lah today

[Kokuu]

Thank you all for continuing to engage with the sutra so fully. I really appreciate the comments and discussion.

Certainly the lack of willingness in Hung-jen's monks to put themselves forward can be interpreted in a number of ways and, as some of you have pointed out, we cannot know if this was the true case (if, indeed, the poetry contest happened) or if it is a rhetorical device. However, as we have also pointed out, there is definitely can be a reticence within us to putting our understanding out to be judged (even if there might also be another side of us does wish to know where we stand!). Perhaps this is why dokusan occurs in private rather than public so that we can be honest without fearing a public dressing down!

I wonder also, because this was not just any poetry competition but putting yourself forward as Hun-jeng's successor, that would take a lot of confidence to admit you are ready for that, and it might be natural to see that Shen-hsiu would be the most qualified and allow him to take the first shot.

Whether the mirror works for you or not as a pointer in meditation is fine. As some have pointed out, it is, as with many images used to describe meditation, just a metaphor (or finer pointing at the moon) rather than practice itself. If it works for you, that is great. If something else works, that is fine too. We respond to different teachings. I must admit that I do like the idea of a mirror, or surface of a lake, faithfully reflecting what faces it.

I probably have heard the idea of mirror-like awareness talked about more in Tibetan Buddhism than Zen but Dogen wrote a fascicle in Shobogenzo called Kokyo, The Eternal Mirror. In this he says:

What all the buddhas and all the patriachs have received and retained, and transmitted one-to-one, is the eternal mirror. They have the same view and the same face, the same image, and the same cast; they share the same state and realise the same experience. A foreigner appears, a foreigner is reflected - one hundred and eight thousand of them. A Chinaman appears, a Chinaman is reflected - for a moment and for ten thousand years. The past appears, the past is reflected; the present appears, the present is reflected; a buddha appears, a buddha is reflected; a patriarch appears, a patriarch is reflected.

As far as my understanding goes (which may or may not be correct, this is one of Dogen's more opaque fascicles for me), the eternal mirror is our awareness which just sees things as they are before we add our judgements and stories on top. And that eternal mirror is the same for each of us as it was for all of the buddhas and patriarchs of the past. Although the mirror applies to the visual sense, in terms of awareness it refers to all of our senses.

So, next we move onto Huineng writing his own gatha and the plot thickens (or perhaps becomes clearer ).

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Tairin]

Why might the monks be so reluctant to submit a poem (something which many of you did here)? How do you feel about presenting your understand to a teacher?

I suppose there is always a little trepidation when it comes to trying to measure up to some perceived goal or standard.

Does thinking of the mind as a mirror help resonate with what you experience in Zazen?

No, not really. I get what this metaphor is intending but frankly the idea of the mind being a mirror and simply reflecting back what is presented feels cold and lacking.


Tairin
sat today and lah

[Myo-jin]

Long post by necessity I fear:

The recent reading of the Platform Sutra brought me back to an often-revisited reflection, a sort of koan perhaps, that to me has always seemed a useful pointer when I get distracted from the ‘point’ of practice into other areas. This is the simple question: “what is it that looks?”

At the outset I will say that I have no idea if these observations tally with or diverge from Zen teachings, but I wanted to share them anyway, although perhaps I'm missing the mark. I was never one for taking other people’s word for things, that’s like watching somebody else eat a delicious meal, without the first-hand experience it’s all travellers’ tales. But I would be interested in hearing from other practitioners and from teachers in particular.

Having revisited the Gatha of the mirror stand, we learn, that the idea of a mirror that we continually clean, while not wholly accurate, is a useful tool to prevent regression among beginners. I interpret this as practices that continually clean the mind, of which there are many in various meditation systems, such as counting the breath etc, but it is clear from Hui Neng’s response that this is useful but not the point, he says “where do you get this dust?”
This seems pretty clear to me, ‘mind’ if it is the capacity for perception itself, includes that which is perceived. In the same way, in zazen we don’t block out the perceptions, since the world around us is part of zazen. Perceiving the mind is the whole point according to Bodhidharma’s sermons, so by perceiving the world we perceive the mind.

But then, it cannot be said that the world is subjective either. I see a live man, he observes the world and is part of it. When he dies, I see his body stop functioning, yet the world remains, just not from his point of view which has ceased to exist. So we can avoid that particular error, while on the other hand we know from experience, and to an extent from scientific experiment, that matter changes as it is observed, so neither is it objective. As Buddha put it, “we are what we think, good follows a good thought”, but here I start to move away from direct experience into what others have said, but only to illustrate.

In a previous post I said that I didn’t really understand the mirror idea. When I observe my ‘mind’, initially it’s more like looking out of the window of a darkened room. It’s my room, I know the contents, and it is separate from the world outside the window. However, when I look more closely, I see that the content of the mind is also in a way ‘the world outside’, that is, its more like the ‘dust on the mirror’ (so it’s also the mirror itself), and so is neither inside nor outside.

So, what do I observe? Well, clearly the observer and the observed are not really separate. There is a continuum of sorts, and a sense of separation is necessary to get along in life. But in fact the observed, be it trees, cars, thoughts, an ache or pains, emotions, are the mind. If I try to look for an invisible hand the causes these things I draw a blank because the mind is these things, it is both empty of any particular qualities, and yet birthing and comprising all of them at once, "form is emptiness, emptiness is form". So, from there what can I do except observe these things as the mind?

What do I do with the information? I learn something paradoxical, while I am my thoughts, at the same time my thoughts are not as real as I suppose, and the same goes for everything else that I might perceive. The world is both subjective and objective, subjective in that it depends on my observing it, yet objective enough that when I am in the ground it will carry on without me, so rather than the world being something for me to perceive, I am myself very much part of the world and in no way separate from it. I also know that ‘the mind’ is not something I can capture like a fish in a jar, since fish, jar, water, hand, are all mind, but like the wind is something that I can really only know through its actions: not the wind, not the flag, it’s the mind that moves, so in the act of observing I have to include the act itself in the observed category.

I can't put my observation any clearer than that, it changes with the observing.

Sattlah,
Gassho
Myojin